What Is Owed?

Saraya Wintersmith [00:00:00] Welcome back. Here we are for the final episode for now. And we're going back to the beginning, where the city of Boston has pledged to figure out and attempt to address what is owed to black people through reparations. We have gone on a journey exploring some of the questions Boston will eventually have to confront in its process as it goes along. If the work gets done, that is. Since we started this podcast, the city has hired researchers to help the eight member Reparations Task Force with assessing the debt. But it's also become abundantly clear that the city expects the research to take almost an entire year. That means the task force won't complete its work of getting recommendations to the city by the end of 2024. That's when, unless determined by the mayor. The panel is scheduled to shut down. Because of that, there is not much to report out here about the task force's progress. There are, however, lots of questions to put to the people closest to this work. So for this episode, we're sitting down with the people in charge of Boston's Reparations Task Force. We're talking about how it's gone, what it needs, and what folks are hoping it delivers. I'm Soraya Winter Smith. This is what is owed.

Pre-Roll

Saraya Wintersmith [00:00:00] There are lots of reasons why Mayor Michelle Wu could have blown off an interview for this podcast. She's a local leader with a national profile, and people from all corners of the nation watch and speculate about what her moves mean for politicians like her who are nonwhite, millennial aged and or progressive Democrats. She's rumored to have aspirations for higher office and one wrong move on a nationally controversial issue like reparations could mar her reputation for years to come. Plus, she's got a ton of other things to deal with as mayor of the city of Boston. Despite that, Mayor Wu, thank you so much for joining us.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:00:42] Thank you for having me.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:00:43] She made time for the podcast. She gave us about a half hour just as we were wrapping up production. It's really the first time we've talked with her at length about Boston's reparations process and how she thinks it's going.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:00:57] This is a really hard, painful, often ignored part of our history and it takes a lot to unpack that and then to begin the process of healing. And so. I think I see all of our task force members as superheroes. But it's not on the shoulders of any individual or any small set of individuals to get this right. They are certainly shaping and steering our process, but it will rest on the entire community feeling like. We've. Made progress on this journey together.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:01:46] I have several sort of critical questions, but I do want to start with the recognition of the fact that you gave the signature that made the Boston Reparations Task Force possible. So why was this task force important for you to enact in Boston?

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:02:02] We recognize that so much of the current landscape that we face in terms of policy challenges and opportunities. Reflects decisions and actions or inactions that were made through policy. Over the course of our nearly 400 year history. And it's not only that we need to take actions to repair and address our history in order to best serve our residents today. But there's a bit also of our role as a. Representative and as the embodiment of what democracy means in this country. But so many around the world point to Boston as the birthplace of revolutionary ideas. And of our American democracy. And so when we reckon with the truth of how that democracy came to be and where it is now, and the work that we still have to go that really has long, far reaching effects as well.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:03:10] And woo deflected credit for setting up the task force. Instead, she pointed to the history of advocates that have kept this issue in the public eye.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:03:19] This has been a conversation that's a long time coming, and I've had the opportunity to hold the pen in this current moment. But it's really the efforts and advocacy of so many in Boston that led to national conversations about the reparations movement. And so certainly leading local legends like Senator Bill Owens and so many others who really laid the groundwork for a nationwide conversation that that started right here in Boston.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:03:57] We spoke with advocates who pushed for the creation of the Cities Task Force. Earlier in the podcast. Some have been critical of the mayor for resisting their original proposal. It would have designated seats for specific activist groups like the NAACP. The mayor, who told me the membership she selected reflects a broad mix of perspectives.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:04:20] I think we have a group that really brings in multiple different hats when they are serving and multiple different professional and personal lived experiences. And so the goal is to. Have a group that comes together as representatives of other communities or other organizations, but also just as members of our community with their own personal and lived experiences too.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:04:51] When it comes to the ongoing debate about who in Boston's black community would qualify for reparations, Wu says, that's still an open question, and it's one that she's leaving up to task force members to answer. After reviewing historians research, Wu had a heavy hand in picking the people on the task force. But she says it's imperative that she doesn't have a heavy hand in the outcomes. The whole purpose is to let the historians, the task force and the public drive the conclusions.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:05:21] This is meant to really follow the lead of our task force members. And and they have the authority and support to be able to engage with what comes out of this in, in the way that best fits Boston. There's not going to be a top down decision from me. I really trust and want to follow our appointed task force members and researchers in where the facts will take them.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:05:53] But getting those facts is taking a long time. This series has covered community criticism about the task force moving too slowly. Wu says when it comes to city process, there's always an attempt to balance with movement, with careful community engagement.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:06:11] We don't always get it right. And in a city like Boston, where there is so much history to grapple with on every issue, this one is really the underlying historical. Set of facts that we need to reckon with in a in a global way. And so there's no part of, there's no part of me that wants to. See any slowdown. And, you know, the sooner that we arrive at recommendations, the sooner we can process how the city can best take action.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:06:48] But in this case, Wu says, getting it right is more important than getting it on time. She says she warned the council that the timeline in the ordinance was very ambitious, particularly for a topic that was going to need so much public discussion.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:07:03] I want to make sure we have space for our historians to do what they need to do and feel that they have. The work product that they want to contribute that reflects the truth of our history. And then to have enough space for our community members to really. Before stakeholders in what's happening.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:07:28] But Wu's current term as mayor expires in January 2026. Given that, and the task force's slow and somewhat rocky start, it seemed fair to ask whether the city's pursuit of reparations can continue even if she's no longer in office.

Mayor Michelle Wu [00:07:46] We're certainly working to make sure that that is the case. There isn't a playbook on how to do this because as is the case on many issues, Boston steps out and other cities are many cities are looking to us. You know, although there are there are examples that we have studied very closely and have followed, whether it is Evanston or Providence or San Francisco or some others. But the number is still relatively small. And we know we are charting a course here. But Boston's done that on a lot of different issues for many decades, and many of those who are on the task force now and who have steered us to this moment of of creating a task force, are familiar with how to handle issues that have high stakes and tremendous weight with the care and accessibility that that is required for community members to really feel part of it. So we're not going to get it perfect at every step. But I can guarantee that we will keep learning and keep adjusting and improving and receiving that feedback so that even as we go. The hope is that our process will become. Ever more comprehensive and inclusive of everyone in Boston who wants to have a role in shaping our future.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:09:29] The person most responsible for delivering this work is Joseph Feaster. In his day job, he's an attorney, and by night he chairs Boston's Reparations Task Force.

Joseph Feaster [00:09:42] Can you hear me well enough?

Saraya Wintersmith [00:09:44] I can hear you. You have an iPhone attorney Feaster.

Joseph Feaster [00:09:50] Yes.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:09:51] Can you record yourself on your iPhone, too?

Joseph Feaster [00:09:55] Okay, well, we are now recording. I'll do both of these.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:10:00] Feaster is something of a layer between the mayor's office and the task force. His job starts in those areas where the mayor says she'll be hands off. And luckily, he's more comfortable talking about the work he oversees day to day. We mentioned at the outset the Reparations Task Force isn't going to finish its work according to the three phase timeline laid out in its establishing ordinance. The plan, on paper, was to have a research phase, a deliberation phase, and a final recommendations phase all complete by the end of 2024. Echoing a sentiment from the mayor, Feaster says that was ambitious on the part of folks who wrote the ordinance, especially given the time it took to assemble the folks on the task force.

Joseph Feaster [00:10:48] The task force was appointed by the and announced by the mayor in February of 2023, and the task force members were sworn in in April of 2023. The ordinance initially said phase one had to be completed by June of 2023. That would be the unrealistic date for that to occur.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:11:12] And that clash between bureaucracy and ambition, according to Feaster, is why Boston is still in phase one, a year after the mayor announced the Reparations Task Force. Since being sworn into duty in April 2023, Feaster has been in charge of this process and he seems to hold a lot of power to shape it. That's despite the lack of an official description of his role within the task force's establishing ordinance. Still, I've gathered a few things about the panel from covering it first before I started working on this podcast. The task force's other members wouldn't even speak to me on the record. They'd just defer to Chair Feaster. So naturally, when stories about the task force came up, it was his thoughts and quotes that appeared in news reports. That alone supercharges his ability to shape the story of the task force in the media and in public perception. Second, he says himself that he understands his role as big.

Joseph Feaster [00:12:18] The chair has extraordinary in open meeting, law issues, extraordinary authority. I'm the one that can prepare the agenda. I can acknowledge folks to tell them where they can speak, how long, etc. but I'm not a dictator. So what I'm trying to do is simply get a process forward. So my responsibility that's running of a meeting when I see the responsibility is, is like the engineer of or the train and or maybe could be the conductor. My job is to get us from point A to point B, and to point A and point B are what's articulated in the ordinance.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:13:04] Third, if you ever get the chance to watch him function as the chair at public meetings, you'll see that he runs them and he does it in a very lawyerly and matter of fact way, keeping time while moving through the agenda and monitoring the expression of public comments. One time I watched him ask several speakers to shorten their remarks, since they weren't relevant to the agenda item at hand.

Respondent [00:13:29] There are few things more important than addressing the quality of social life in Boston, beyond addressing the issue of white supremacy. I ask that you ensure that this process is fully funded, so that the task force can do what is necessary to make sure.

Joseph Feaster [00:13:41] I ask you again, as I have said to previous speakers, I know that you want to submit that in order to their testimony and to be more than happy to have it, but I'm not going to have that side on the agenda for here. The agenda is to speak about what we presented here.

Respondent [00:13:56] And I'm leading up to that right now.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:13:58] So I'm not entirely sure how his personality and style affect the inner workings of Boston's Reparations Task Force. And as I've said before, in true Boston politics fashion, no one close to the work will explicitly give their take on it. It's an unfortunate professional hazard for a journalist in a big city with a small town feel. Anyway, to this point about public comments and, more broadly, public engagement. Feaster says he expects there to be much more once the task force gets a report from the researchers.

Joseph Feaster [00:14:32] And that completion is now stated for December 31st of 2024. Now, the researchers may comment before that. Fine. Then we can proceed forward to getting into phase two. And in my mind, that's when we would have most engaging with the community to get some sense of their responses to what the researchers have found and assist with that task force and its deliberations in making a recommendation to the mayor.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:15:04] You might recall from earlier in the podcast, the task force's lack of public engagement was one of the complaints we heard from city politicos and residents. And just like I asked the mayor, I asked the task force chair about it, too. Feaster says he understands people's urgency, but the institution of slavery and its legacy is centuries long. He believes it's important to finish the research first.

Joseph Feaster [00:15:31] For me, the time for the community engagement is when we have the baseline research and the recommendations from our researchers. I don't need to sit through a meeting of my grandpappy came up on the tractor from Georgia. That's not going to be helpful to me at the present time because I don't have a baseline sense. We're always seeking to determine what was Boston's engagement.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:16:02] And as far as transparency goes.

Joseph Feaster [00:16:05] There's a website. I mean, there's a city website which tells you exactly what we're doing and when. So for me, we have performed our task in accordance to the ordinance. I'm following the ordinance.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:16:20] He goes on to add the caveat that the task force has followed the ordinance based upon a. Realistic time frame. Feaster declined to give a letter grade to the task force so far, saying that he considers the panel's work a pass fail situation in his view. They're passing, but some people in Boston aren't convinced. A local citizens group has launched its own reparations panel, with the demand that Boston dedicate $15 billion for reparations, 5 billion for direct cash payments to black residents and the rest for addressing crime, racial education gaps and financial institutions. Vista says he has no thoughts on the group or its demand.

Joseph Feaster [00:17:04] They're free to go about their business and I really don't have an opinion on their work. But what I will say the only official body for the city of Boston is the task force, which I chair.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:17:19] Got it. And I just have to ask so that I'm clear and sure and not extrapolating. You don't have anything to say about the demand for $15 billion that's coming specifically out of Boston.

Joseph Feaster [00:17:33] All it is, is a big number.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:17:36] Beyond the big number. I asked Feaster what Boston's acknowledgment of its complicity in harming black people will mean to the city's residents.

Joseph Feaster [00:17:45] I can't answer that, Soraya. Because if you would ask me right now, there are we we know some of that history is not like we're starting from, from, bases of no knowledge. So we know what the history is, what we're talking about, putting this in a form to be able to make the argument that says, as a result of all of that, you owe a segment of the population reparations to address those jobs. And that's what we're in the business of talking about now. So what it will mean at the end of this, I'm not sure it'll have different meaning to several people, several folks who say, I already knew about that other one to say, wow, I didn't know all of that. So it'll have different. So I think it'll be left to each individual to determine how they evaluate what this process was all about.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:18:39] But I reminded Feaster he had written about what it means to him as part of an op ed in The Dorchester Reporter, one of Boston's surviving neighborhood newspapers. Embracing reparations is the radical commitment to justice that a time marked by social unrest and unprecedented struggles demands. Boston, through its Reparations Task Force, is prepared to embark on this restorative journey. And then it's it's your name in the in the Dorchester reporter. From February 22nd, 2024. Can you just say some more about your thoughts there?

Joseph Feaster [00:19:22] We know that there was, Joe. The institution of slavery and its legacy has done irreparable harm to two blacks. So we're going through the process of saying, if we can look at all of that, we can come together and make a determination that this community recognizes the harm that it created and as a result, believes that it needs to be, a restorative process for those people that were adversely affected, then that's something that Boston should do. And we hope that that is the outcome of the work that we're engaged in, through this reparation task force process.

Mid-Roll

Saraya Wintersmith [00:00:00] Over the course of my reporting on the task force, I've gotten more and more curious about the members beyond Joe Feaster, the other figures who straddle the line between city officials and public advocates. And since the launch of the series, two of them decided they were ready to share their thoughts. George Greenwich junior says that since the task force began, he's been reluctant to take on inquiries. He can't answer.

George Greenwich [00:00:27] It's just, you know, just so many moving parts when this thing started and, you know, lots of people want a lot of questions answered immediately about who's going to get the money and what's the criteria. And we just didn't have those answers yet, or we're not going to have those answers right away.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:00:46] But he was inspired by an event held at GBH Studios as this podcast was launching.

George Greenwich [00:00:53] When I came to the kickoff of the series of the podcast, I was really amazed by the work and the energy that was put into it. And so, you know, I just wanted to make sure that, you know, we just hear, you know, just just from one person's perspective of how everything's going.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:01:15] Greenwich says since joining the task force, he's attended several reparations conferences. My producer and I actually saw him at the one we referenced in Evanston earlier in the series. He says that's part of how he's been trying to take it all in. That's because when he got the call to serve on the task force, he thought back to the ways he became active in city government as a younger man. But ultimately, he had no clue what it was going to be like. The same is true for Greenwich Task Force colleague Margie Frazier. She was stunned when she got the call.

Frazer [00:01:49] I had to ask in a double take, are you for real? And I was honored to be able to think with a group of people who, are serious about what it means to produce a report. Once I got the understanding of what we were going to do, I began to reflect on what this would mean to future generations coming and how it might not be something that I realized in my own time, but that I could contribute and participate was really an honor.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:02:27] Both Frazier and Greenwich say the fact that Boston is dealing with the issue means the city is in uncharted territory.

George Greenwich [00:02:35] And, you know, you couldn't have this conversation 25 years ago, couldn't have this conversation 40 years ago. So it's a different time to have this conversation. I think the nation is ready. I think the community's ready. And I think City Hall is learning to be ready is that, you know, this requires a lot of work and support and networking and doing things that are a little bit different. And so I think that's one thing that I've been really trying to push the city to do things a little bit different.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:03:04] That last piece about doing things a little bit different is a sore spot for Greenwich. Over the past year, he's brought several suggestions to try to get the task force to read more smoothly and address community criticism, again in typical Boston fashion. He declines to say much about it for the podcast, but it's clear he's tried to change how the task force is working.

George Greenwich [00:03:28] Personally, as a member, I've put this all in front of people as the, you know, our first documented meeting in May and it's been brought to the attention of the city administration, and it's, now for them to be able to act as well.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:03:43] Frazier sees it a bit differently. She says public criticism is to be expected.

Frazer [00:03:48] No process is without some challenge. So I think it would be remiss of us to think that everyone is going to be happy that this is very deep. It's a very emotional process.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:04:10] Greenwich says a year into the work, he gives the panel a C grade.

George Greenwich [00:04:14] I think there's a learning curve for everybody. Some people haven't been a part of the public process. Some people have, some people haven't been in public meetings or served on city boards. So you have to learn that whole process, learn what the structures are, and you're going to have to try to put them in process. So it's a learning curve for everybody.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:04:33] Frazier says something similar about there being a learning curve for task force members.

Frazer [00:04:37] We are improving. I would say that, as with any, new entity there, you have to get your feet on the ground. You have to begin to really run with your charge.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:04:50] But she frames the panel's work ahead as an opportunity to gain the public's trust. Without much of a blueprint. And sure. There. Are other cities that have started reparations panels.

Frazer [00:05:03] But those geographical spaces are different than Boston, so we have to tailor fit what we're doing to what was here. The impact of slavery in this place and the city of Boston to answer for what was here. So with those ingredients in, it's at best a process by which we look to gain engagement with our public that is positive.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:05:32] To that point. Greenwich also echoes a thought from the mayor about balancing the glacial pace of bureaucracy with the burning urgency of community. And, he adds, another element that complicates the task force's public engagement work. For many. Exploring history can be painful.

George Greenwich [00:05:51] It's interesting. I during the pandemic, I started doing my own DNA analysis. I got my mom and dad to give me their DNA samples, which I thought they would never do because they're old school. But they did it. And the most interesting thing was my mother never knew who her grandfather was. And, through Ancestry.com, I was able to find who my grandfather was. I was like, hey, everybody feeling so good that I have this great information to share about their grandfather. My mother was eager, but my uncle said, you know what? I don't want to know. And I go, wow, I don't want to know. So these kind of memories can be, as we say, you have to dig or you have to be able to prove and all these other things. There's some family members that are just, listen, this is too painful to actually move forward with.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:06:51] It sounds like you, and I imagine that you would also say your fellow task force members really do intimately understand the pain that comes along with processing the issue of black oppression, like on a familial and individual level, and you're bringing that into the panel's processing.

George Greenwich [00:07:18] Hopefully, hopefully.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:07:20] Greenwich says the burden of processing that pain is a shared one, and the public hold some of the responsibility to.

George Greenwich [00:07:28] Just being able to say it at a community meeting doesn't mean it, but you also have to back it up and follow it up. There's, you have city councilors that are, advocates of this work. It passed unanimously. You have staff members in the city of Boston that have been charged to do this work. You're going to just have to hold them accountable, as well as the politicians and also the mayor and also the task force that it gets done.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:07:53] Do I hear you saying that the city of Boston is only going to take this process, as seriously as the public demands?

George Greenwich [00:08:01] I bet so. I mean, if you mean if you need more resources and networks, if people want that, then we're going to have to ask for it.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:08:08] Is that fair? Is it fair for the city to put something forward and say, here's an issue we mean to address, and then also expect that the people who would be the beneficiaries of what they are trying to address have to now make double effort to show up and make sure that it's followed through. Is that fair?

George Greenwich [00:08:32] Well, there are many issues that are going on in the city. There's a housing crisis. There's a migrant, housing crisis, there's education. And so in order for that not to get bumped, all right, many all these issues are very important, but you're going to have to make sure that it stays on the front, on the front burner of of discussions and actions. This is just what it is. And, you know, many things get passed through and it sounds good at the time and everyone claps and all happy and so forth. But the real work is the sustainability part of the work.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:09:05] Greenwich points out that although the creation of the task force has been a huge step forward for Boston's reparations effort, the process won't end with the committee's recommendations.

George Greenwich [00:09:16] You're going to have to have a city council that votes on that with the mayor to put the right recommendations and funding and appropriations to make this thing happen. We can write the books perfect document in the world, but if you ain't got the votes, guess what? It's not going anywhere.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:09:34] Greenwich admits that the panel struggled to get its footing at the beginning, caused some delays, and that means by the time the recommendations are complete, there may be a different set of political leaders deciding what to do with them.

George Greenwich [00:09:48] We do run risk of, of it not being, truly supported just as much as it was, when it was, passed in 2020. Two. And that's where we, as community members and voters have to make sure that we put this on the radar of our local politicians. That we cannot let up.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:10:14] Lamberti Frazier agrees. And like Greenwich, she considers the task force part of the community that wants to see the work finished.

Frazer [00:10:23] So underneath all of that is the the passion to, to be informed, number one, and to not make this a fluffernutter event, that this is an event of absolute critical importance to fluffernutter. We have an opportunity to really do something important that at least this leg of the race, this baton that we're holding, can be, given to the next people who will make more and more considerations of what is repair of what is it is to restore.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:11:08] The idea Frazier is getting at lives at the very core of this series. We've been tracking this baton passing from Belinda Sutton to Bill Owens to the present with the work of the task force. The weight of the work is heavy, and the handoffs haven't always been triumphant or precise. But Frazier says the task force doesn't represent a sprint to the finish line. The relay continues, and this is where we leave this process. In the midst of Boston's pursuit to understand what is owed is just as messy as when we started. But the task force members believe they have a solid process to consider. The question.

Frazer [00:11:49] While it is very urgent, we have to exercise some expectation of not getting it all right. At first, I think we have to think about how this process is, less than perfect process. This is a much more labor intensive process and a much more patient ask grace extending. Yes.

Saraya Wintersmith [00:12:20] What is owed is a production of GBH news. This episode was produced and written by our senior producer Jerome Campbell, along with me, Soraya Wynter Smith. Editing by Paul Singer. Production oversight by Lee Hill. Melee is our project manager and managing producer for podcasting at GBH is Devon Maverick Robins. Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott. Theme song and original music by Maleek Williams. Artwork by Matt Welch. And mommy, how about we love hearing from our listeners? Leave us a voicemail at 617958 6061.