DETOURS

Adam Monahan:

So we were at the Hotel Del Coronado a couple years ago in 2018, and first of all, we should go back there. Agree.

Marsha Bemko:

Hey, look it, my husband never wants to go with me to on tour. I'm too busy. He doesn't want to go to certain places that we're going. That's one of the few places he's been with me. He's like, "You're going there. I'm coming."

Adam Monahan:

I'm reminiscing with my boss, Marsha Bemko, about one of the coolest places, GBH's Antiques Roadshow has ever filmed, the Hotel del Coronado right on the beach in Southern California. It did not suck.

Marsha Bemko:

Yeah, I'd like to do that every year if we could.

Adam Monahan:

And not only was it one of the coolest places we've ever been, but it's also where we discovered one of the coolest tables we've ever seen.

John Sollo:

The legs are wonderful. They're sleek, they're minimal. They're made out of some kind of unusual material. The top, I believe is Rosewood.

Susan:

Rosewood. Yes.

John Sollo:

Gorgeous.

Adam Monahan:

John Sollo appraises a mid-century modern table. Do you remember it?

Marsha Bemko:

I do. It is called The Kitchen Debate Table, and I don't know about most people out there, but I had never heard of this debate before seeing this table.

Adam Monahan:

I had never heard of this debate either, but it was a pretty big deal at the time.

Susan:

In 1959, the US sent a kitchen of the future to Moscow for a world exhibition.

Adam Monahan:

This was known as the American National Exhibition in what was then the Soviet Union. At the time, the Cold War was in full swing and tensions between the United States and the Soviet Union were really high. Each country was trying to out compete the other, and there was this impromptu debate between American Vice President Richard Nixon and Soviet Union Premier Nikita Khrushchev that showed just how tense things were.

President Nixon:

But in order for both of us, for both of us to benefit [inaudible ]. You never concede anything.

Adam Monahan:

And they're just arguing it out over who's got the better government. And it all takes place in front of this table, this kitchen table that we have on our show.

Marsha Bemko:

Even we get goosebumps when we make those discoveries.

Adam Monahan:

A cool discovery from an icy debate during the Cold War. Of course, it gave us goosebumps, but exactly what jabs were thrown during this exchange and what revelation recently came to light about who made this table, a table that witnessed world history in the making. Today we're going to find out.

I'm Adam Monahan, a producer with GBH's Antiques Roadshow, and this is Detours. Today, Breaking the Ice. Marsha and I both grew up during the Cold War, that point in history with frosty international relations between the US and the Soviet Union, but we have slightly different memories.

Marsha Bemko:

I remember just sort of the big bad guys across the over in that Russian. They were big and bad, and that's all I remember as a little kid. It was big and bad.

Adam Monahan:

Yeah. Scary guys living over there.

Marsha Bemko:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Monahan:

They have missiles pointed at us. We have missiles pointed at them. I remember all that stuff and I certainly remember Rocky IV.

Marsha Bemko:

Wait, I don't, what's Rocky IV?

Adam Monahan:

Rocky IV is where Sylvester Stallone fights Drago and Drago's the depiction of what a big scary Russian was. And they go at it and like five foot two Sylvester Stallone beat six foot nine Drago in a fight, the most unrealistic fight of all time and basically ends the Cold War.

So yeah, my knowledge of 20th century international relations is somewhat lacking, but luckily I live right across the river from a lot of people with brilliant minds who know about such things.

Mark Kramer:

My name is Mark Kramer. I'm the director of the Cold War Studies program at Harvard University and also a senior fellow of Harvard's Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian studies.

Adam Monahan:

The Davis Center helps educate the general public about the history, culture, and current events of Russia and Eurasia, exactly what we're here for.

So first of all, have you seen Rocky IV? Could he have beaten Drago?

Mark Kramer:

The films themselves are probably pretty unrealistic, but it's set against, I think what would be a pretty realistic backdrop of the Cold War.

Adam Monahan:

In other words, Rocky would have lost. Now that we got that out of the way, it's time for my primer course in Cold War history.

Mark Kramer:

It's basically is the period just after the Second World War, the mid 1940's through the end of the 1980's, and it was a period in which there were two countries, the United States and the Soviet Union that were seen as by far the most powerful countries on earth, and they were called superpowers. They shaped what was the Cold War.

Adam Monahan:

The United States, and the Soviet Union didn't interact that much before the 1940's. Joseph Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union at the time, and he kept his distance from other countries. But then during the Second World War, the United States and the Soviet Union wound up fighting on the same side, but they weren't exactly friends. Their union was ripe with distrust.

Mark Kramer:

There were significant ways that the two countries cooperated, but even during the war as well as earlier in the 1930's, Stalin had an aggressive program of espionage underway in the United States and Britain. He had numerous spies, for example, in the US Nuclear Weapons Program as well as in the US government. So it wasn't quite what it appeared on the surface. This cooperative wartime alliance concealed some very major conflicts between the two.

Adam Monahan:

For one thing, the US really didn't like Stalin and understandably so.

Mark Kramer:

Stalin was a tyrant. He murdered millions of people. It's hard to overstate what a ruthless tyrant he was. He achieved a degree of power that has almost never been matched, and I mean, Hitler had nowhere near the firm control of Nazi Germany as Stalin did in the Soviet Union. So there were good reasons for tensions between the two countries.

Adam Monahan:

Despite their differences, the reluctant partners worked together to defeat Nazi Germany, but once that was over, the Cold War was on.

Soundbite from old movie:

In recognizing a communist, physical appearance counts for nothing. If he openly declares himself to be a communist, we take his word for it.

Adam Monahan:

There are a lot of reasons why the Cold War began, but on a very basic level, it was a clash between capitalism and communism. Mark breaks down the icy conflict into a couple of periods.

Mark Kramer:

There were two basic phases. One that I would say was the first eight years or so, the time when Joseph Stalin was still the leader in the Soviet Union.

Adam Monahan:

Under Stalin, the Soviet Union was very closed off.

Mark Kramer:

Journalists, for example, the very few who were allowed in were under constant watch and couldn't really talk to ordinary people. So relatively little was known about the Soviet Union, and that's why when the Cold War emerged, it tended to emerge about a country that perhaps was seen as more nefarious than many Soviet citizens would have liked.

Soundbite from old movie:

If a person defends the activities of communist nations while consistently attacking the domestic and foreign policy of the United States, she may be a communist.

Mark Kramer:

Stalin didn't care. He wanted the Soviet Union to be a global superpower, and he achieved that.

Adam Monahan:

In 1953, Stalin died.

Mark Kramer:

After his death, the Cold War entered a significantly different phase in that it was still very tense and there was still a great deal of animosity between the two sides, but it didn't have quite the degree of hostility and closeness to war that it did under Stalin.

Adam Monahan:

With Stalin gone, the Soviet Union needed a new leader. One promising candidate was a man named Nikita Khrushchev. Khrushchev rose to prominence serving Joseph Stalin and doing well, horrible, horrible things, including participating in the purging of political opponents and quashing insurgencies in the territories fighting to free themselves of Soviet rule. His loyalty was rewarded, and in the early 1950's, he was in the highest ranks of the Communist Party. When Stalin died, Khrushchev became the supreme leader, and he had different concerns than Stalin.

Mark Kramer:

He was much more concerned about the Soviet Union's image in the world, and that's why he was so worried about the kitchen on display at the American National Exhibition.

Adam Monahan:

So now we're almost at the table that landed on our show. That story, the story of the American National Exhibition and the Kitchen of the Future really starts in 1957. That year, Khrushchev made a rare appearance on American television. He gave an interview on CBS's Face the Nation in which he blamed the United States for the icy relationship between the two countries. Here he is in that interview, his parts read by an interpreter.

Interpretation of Khrushchev:

At the present time, you are practicing discrimination. You are not trading with us. We, for our part, are trying to do all we can to bring about a normal state of things and to bring about peaceful coexistence between countries.

Adam Monahan:

The US replies, "You're not trying to achieve normalcy, you are censoring us." The US felt that the Soviet Union wasn't providing its citizens with an unfiltered view into the American way of life.

Mark Kramer:

Bear in mind that this was long before the age of the internet and the only information really available to Soviet citizens was what they read in the Soviet press. And so it was quite a distorted view.

Adam Monahan:

In addition to the lack of cultural exchange, there were some other issues. Khrushchev really wanted to reach political and strategic agreements with the United States in order to gain access to American advancements in science and technology. Plus, there were the nuclear weapons. The United States and the Soviet Union both had them, and it was in each country's best interest to keep some level of peace to avoid the worst case scenario.

Soundbite from old movie:

The chance of your being hurt by an atomic bomb is slight, but since there is a chance, you must know how to protect yourself. Besides the blast, there's radioactive ...

Adam Monahan:

And part of keeping that piece was getting a better understanding of each other. So in 1958, the two countries struck a deal that allowed for an exchange of things like films, magazines, and airline flights. It also set the stage for each country to put on an exhibition for the other. In June of 1959, the Soviet Trade show opened in New York City, so Americans could see the latest in Soviet technology and art. It featured things like the satellite Sputnik, airplane and ship models, and artistic works of Soviet realism by painters such as Isaac Brodsky.

Old movie soundbite:

The show itself puts a heavy propaganda emphasis on peace and progress. As the US readies our Moscow fair, Russia puts on its best face here.

Adam Monahan:

On July 24th, 1959, the American National Exhibition opened in Moscow to show the people of the Soviet Union a more accurate depiction of America.

Mark Kramer:

The idea of this exhibition was to let them know what daily life was really like.

Adam Monahan:

Or at least a rather sugarcoated view of what daily life was like in 1950's America.

Mark Kramer:

As you would expect it, it didn't cover extensively things like racial segregation that institutionalized racism that existed there. It also didn't cover other social problems or economic problems. It really focused on the positive features of life.

Adam Monahan:

The America of this exhibition was harmonious, progressive, and undeniably advanced.

Mark Kramer:

One of the purposes of this exhibition was to show that in fact, technology was much more advanced in the United States than it was in the Soviet Union, which of course was true. Consumer goods were much more abundant in the United States, and so again, it was to show average Soviet citizens what they were missing.

Adam Monahan:

One thing Soviet citizens were missing was the so-called miracle kitchen.

Mark Kramer:

The whole kitchen. It wasn't just the table, it was made to look like something out of what was later the Jetsons cartoon, the kind of space age kitchen, and it included some consumer goods that were not widely available at that point. Things like individual coffee makers, microwave ovens and so forth. So those things were not widely available at that point, but they were beginning to come on the market.

Adam Monahan:

And in the midst of this incredible exhibit was the table that appeared on our show at the Hotel del Coronado in 2018.

John Sollo:

So Susan .

Susan:

Yes.

John Sollo:

Tell me about this wonderful table.

Susan:

In 1959, the US sent a kitchen of the future to Moscow for a world exhibition, and the day before the exhibition opened, Vice President Nixon flew to Moscow so that he could ask Khrushchev to come in for a private showing of the kitchen itself. Okay.

Old movie soundbite:

Vice President Nixon escorts Soviet premier Khrushchev on a preview of the United States Fair at Sokolniki Park in Moscow. It's the official opening of the American Exposition, counterpart of the Soviet Trade Show in New York and dedicated to showcasing the highest standard of life in our country.

Susan:

So he took him through the exhibit and they got to talking about some of the different appliances and stuff that were in the kitchen, and Khrushchev started to get a little testy about it.

Old movie soundbite:

And the story of the fair itself is eclipsed by a crackling exchange between Nixon and Khrushchev begun off camera and finished off before the American Ampex color videotape recorders.

Susan:

Now, you had two men that both had tempers at this point, so this conversation got extremely heated and very just really intense.

Old movie soundbite:

Every aspect of the Cold War and Soviet American rivalry is argued in blunt and forthright terms.

Adam Monahan:

Here's some of the debate with Khrushchev's parts read by my colleague Sam Farrell.

Sam Farrell:

In speaking about impressions, it is now obvious that the builders haven't managed to complete their construction and the exhibits are not yet in place. Therefore, it is hard to comment because what we see is the construction process rather than the exhibits we'd like to see.

Adam Monahan:

Khrushchev does go on to say that he's sure the exhibition will wind up being just dandy, but Nixon seems to have taken offense at Khrushchev's assessment of the current state of America's future-tastic showcase.

President Nixon:

I think that from what I have seen, that it's a very effective exhibit and it's one that will cause a great deal of interest.

Adam Monahan:

And then throws in a little jab at how Mr. Khrushchev presents himself.

President Nixon:

As far as Mr. Khrushchev's comments just now, they are in the tradition we learned to expect from him of speaking extemporaneously and frankly, whenever he has an opportunity.

Adam Monahan:

And then Nixon points out how wonderful it is that this is all being captured by the miracle of modern color television cameras, a technology in which Americans are outpacing the Soviets, but he also gives the Soviets credit where credit is due.

President Nixon:

There are some instances where you may be ahead of us, for example, in the development of the thrust of your rockets for the investigation of outer space. There may be some instances, for example, color television where we're ahead of you, but in order for both of us ...

Sam Farrell:

What do you mean ahead? No, never. We've beaten you in rockets.

President Nixon:

You never concede anything.

Sam Farrell:

And in this technology, we're ahead of you too.

President Nixon:

Wait until you see the picture. You must not be afraid of ideas.

Adam Monahan:

The debate escalates pretty quickly, in part because living conditions and kitchens in general were a touchy subject for Khrushchev. At the time, the average Soviet housing situation wasn't exactly luxurious. Here's Mark Kramer again.

Mark Kramer:

Residential housing in the Soviet Union was, how should I put it? At best, very primitive. Often families had to share dwellings. There were these communal apartments. Trying to think, maybe something like in a dormitory in the United States, maybe a university dormitory that you get these little kitchenettes, and that's roughly what a Soviet kitchen was like at that point. He was well aware that for a lot of Soviet citizens, this was a grave source of irritation.

Adam Monahan:

People were ready for a change.

Mark Kramer:

Khrushchev quickly realized that he wasn't really going to be able to offset the appeal to a lot of Soviet citizens of some of the technologies that were on display, the consumer goods. So instead, what he did was to try to disparage them to say that they were really unnecessary, that you didn't have to have a juicing machine, for example, to create juice out of oranges or lemons. He said, "We can do that ourselves. We don't need these fancy machines." He understood right away that for a lot of Soviet citizens, this kitchen was really going to look nice, and so he wanted to make sure that they instead received his view that they didn't really need these kinds of fancy consumer goods.

Adam Monahan:

Besides the ice maker, the automatic dishwasher, and of course, the juicer, visitors to the 1959 American National Exhibition in Moscow might have noticed another sleek showpiece, a kitchen table. The very same kitchen table that would appear on our show almost 60 years later and impress our appraiser, John Sollo.

John Sollo:

This table represents everything good about modern design, everything that people like about it. This table has, and then some. The legs are wonderful. They're sleek, they're metal. The top, I believe is Rosewood.

Adam Monahan:

Rosewood. Yes.

John Sollo:

Gorgeous. It's gorgeous. When I saw this table, when you brought it in, I thought, "My God, that's a gorgeous table."

Susan:

A lot of people stopped us in line coming in, wanting to know about it.

Adam Monahan:

And after a repeat of this appraisal aired in 2022, there were people at home watching our show on their color televisions who wanted us to know more about it.

Narrated reader's message:

Dear Antiques Roadshow and Mr. John Sollo, this came to my family's attention during a recent rebroadcast of season 23's episode seven on WEDU in Venice, Florida. We'd like you to correct this in future broadcasts.

Adam Monahan:

We'll hear what they had to tell us after the break.

Do you normally write into Antiques Roadshow? That's my first question.

Peggy Chase:

Absolutely not. I normally watch Antiques Roadshow.

Adam Monahan:

That's Peggy Chase, the one who wrote to us about this appraisal.

Peggy Chase:

But it was my father who was watching a repeat episodes at his home in Florida, and thereupon came this piece of furniture, with which he was intimately familiar.

Adam Monahan:

In the TV appraisal the guest explains how the kitchen and everything in it came to be.

Susan:

They asked the Whirlpool Corporation to build this kitchen, and the Whirlpools then hired a Detroit industrial design firm by the name of Sundberg-Ferar.

Adam Monahan:

Meaning Whirlpool built the kitchen. But everything in this kitchen, including the table, was designed by Sundberg-Ferar or so we thought.

Doug Clemenshaw:

When I saw that and they said it was Sundberg and Ferar, I said, "No, that's a Lee DuSell table."

Adam Monahan:

That's Peggy's dad. Doug Clemenshaw. How did you know right away that was a Lee DuSell?

Doug Clemenshaw:

Oh, there's never been anything created by anyone that looks anything like that.

Adam Monahan:

And Doug would know, because he's been friends with Lee DuSell since the mid-1950's.

Doug Clemenshaw:

I met him when we both were hired to teach initially at Syracuse University in 1956. We rented a house. I lived in the upstairs, he lived in the downstairs, and I had those tables in my presence frequently.

Adam Monahan:

When Doug saw the appraisal on TV, he immediately called up his daughter Peggy, to tell her the news. Peggy then sent an email to us and our appraiser, John Sollo, informing us that this table was in fact not made by Sundberg-Ferar. We were very grateful for Doug and Peggy's help setting the story, but it raises the obvious question, how did a Lee DuSell table make it into a Whirlpool kitchen designed by Sundberg-Ferar.

Lynea Haggard:

The name of our company is the name of our two founders. So Carl Sundberg and Montgomery Ferar.

Adam Monahan:

That's Lynea Haggard, the marketing manager for the design firm, Sundberg-Ferar. In the 1940's, Sundberg-Ferar caught the attention of the home appliance company, Whirlpool.

Lynea Haggard:

We were Whirlpool's go-to design firm for decades, and we did everything with them from air conditioners to dehumidifiers, to washer dryers, stoves, fridges, microwaves, everything you can imagine in the household. We designed those appliances with Whirlpool, and so it was only natural that when Whirlpool wanted to create the Miracle Kitchen, that Sandberg Ferar was that design partner for them.

Adam Monahan:

In the late 1950's, Whirlpool wanted to showcase some of their latest and greatest innovations. So they created a sort of demo kitchen with all kinds of futuristic prototype appliances to show customers. This was known as the Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen of the future.

Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen Promo:

Welcome to the RCA Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen. In this kitchen, you can bake a cake in three minutes, and in this kitchen, the dishes are scraped, washed, and dried electronically. They even put themselves away. Even the floor is cleaned electronically. So welcome to this wonderful new world.

Adam Monahan:

Whirlpool's Miracle Kitchen designed by Sandberg Ferar was showcased around the United States in the late 1950's.

Lynea Haggard:

They were touring it with the intent of gathering public reactions and responses to it. Originally, it would have been built to engage the public interest and see what appliances people were interested in having in their homes, so that before going into production with a new concept and a new product that would require millions of dollars, they could judge whether there was actually going to be people who were willing to spend money on it.

Adam Monahan:

And of course, every kitchen needs a table.

Lee DuSell:

Around the year 1957, the firm of Sandberg Ferar contacted me.

Adam Monahan:

That's the table designer himself.

Lee DuSell:

I am a Lee DuSell, an artist, craftsman, and designer, and I designed the table included in the episode from 218, the Kitchen Table debate.

Adam Monahan:

The story of this kitchen table really begins in 1951. Shortly after Lee and his wife Mary, moved to Aurora, Illinois. The young couple were furnishing their new home and they needed a kitchen table, so Lee decided to build one.

Lee DuSell:

My first attempt was a table built using metal rods and a black walnut top, but I dismantled and discarded it as being too conventional.

Adam Monahan:

Lee wanted to make something a little more interesting. He was a designer after all. It just so happened that Lee and Mary lived down the street from a metal casting foundry. It was there that Lee learned how to make a foundry pattern for his own metal castings.

Lee DuSell:

Using this newfound skill. I applied it to the dining table project. I thought that a more interesting design could be created through utilizing cast metal legs.

Adam Monahan:

Cast metal is made by pouring liquid hot metal into a mold. Lee was able to cast the legs and table supports all in the same mold. The end result was a smooth flowing design where the vertical legs blended seamlessly into the horizontal supports. It was very futuristic looking.

Lee DuSell:

This is perhaps the key to the success of the whole design. I then had another local company fabricate a solid wood tabletop to create the first de Sel dining table.

Adam Monahan:

Shortly after the table was completed, Lee entered it into a national design competition where it won an award for outstanding design. The table went on a tour for a year, and it was showcased at various museums around the country. Lee quickly made a name for himself and produced a few more tables of similar design for various clients throughout the 1950's. Then in 1956, Lee and his family moved to Syracuse, New York, where he got a job as a professor of industrial design, and moved in downstairs from our viewer, Doug Clemenshaw, and it's around then that Sandberg Ferar contacted Lee to build them a couple of tables.

Lee DuSell:

Between the teaching and the architectural commissions. I did not have time to craft tables anymore.

Adam Monahan:

Instead, what they agreed upon was this. Lee would provide a few sets of finished table legs, which he already had in his inventory, and Sandberg Ferar would provide the tabletops.

Lee DuSell:

Sandberg Ferar used my table design and used the original data engineer Sel crafted table legs to create two or three tables. I never knew how it came out.

Adam Monahan:

Sandberg Ferar used one of these tables in Whirlpool's Miracle Kitchen. A couple years later, in 1959, the United States was putting together the American National Exhibition in Moscow. Remember, the idea behind this exhibition was to show Soviet citizens a more accurate or wildly futuristic version of American daily life in the 1950's, a version not shown by the heavily censored Soviet media at the time.

So it was kind of a no-brainer that this Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen would be there complete with Lee's table. It had all the country's cutting edge technology and latest appliances, perfect for showing off American progress to their Soviet rivals. And as for how our guest ended up with this table, well, her father was Carl Sandberg, co-founder of Sandberg Ferar.

Susan:

So after the exhibition was ended, everything was brought back to the United States, and this table ended up in my family's kitchen.

Adam Monahan:

But growing up, she didn't know how special this table really was.

Susan:

My husband, who and we weren't even married at that point, we went to the movies, and at that time, movies would be shown with a news reel at the very beginning. So we watched this news reel about the Kitchen Debate, and we're halfway through it, and my husband Bob said, "There's your table." And so we went back, we talked to my dad, and he had never even told us the story of it. We really didn't know anything about it. So years later, when my parents downsized, we ended up with the table and it was in our kitchen. So I have to say it's got all the battle scars on it because we used it as a kitchen table.

John Sollo:

On some levels it's a very difficult table to appraise. It's only one.

Susan:

I would think.

John Sollo:

If you brought this table to auction for an estimate, I would put 15,000 to $25,000 on it.

Susan:

Okay.

John Sollo:

I would. And I honestly believe, and I have no way to prove this, but I honestly believe that it would bring a lot more than that. The other thing I wanted to mention real quickly is the fact that people ask about condition and in a lot of areas of collecting condition is absolutely paramount. Absolutely paramount. That's not true with this.

Susan:

Oh, that's good.

John Sollo:

They're not true.

Susan:

That's good. There's a lot of wine stains on it.

John Sollo:

To me, they just add to the story, right?

Susan:

Yeah.

John Sollo:

This mark, that mark, I don't think would affect the value at all.

Susan:

Great.

John Sollo:

Not whatsoever.

Susan:

That's great.

Adam Monahan:

The fact that it was used in that exhibit to represent the future of kitchen design, was it an honor?

Lee DuSell:

Yes, it is an honor. I am very grateful for the recognition that the table has received over the years, and the interest in that continues to this very day.

Adam Monahan:

Although Khrushchev didn't seem impressed by the kitchen, we know that some Soviet citizens were.

Mark Kramer:

We do know ordinary Soviet citizens who came to the exhibition were for the most part, very favorably impressed because they were interviewed afterward by what they thought were neutral observers. But in fact, they were working for the Soviet Communist Party.

Adam Monahan:

After the exhibit the people who were there, the Soviets were very impressed by our kitchen. It worked.

Marsha Bemko:

Wow.

Adam Monahan:

They thought it was very useful and even though you don't really need a juicer, it's kind of ... Anybody who's ever had a juicer uses it once and then puts it away for five years.

Marsha Bemko:

It's still true. You don't really need a juicer. Yeah.

Adam Monahan:

You don't need a juicer.

Marsha Bemko:

Yeah.

Adam Monahan:

But if you'd never seen a juicer and you saw that people over there have a juicer, you kind of want a juicer.

Detours is a production of GBH in Boston and distributed by Pier X. This episode was co-written by myself and co-written, produced, and mixed and sound designed by Jack Pombrian. Our assistant producer is Sarah Horatius. Script editing by Galen Bebe, and our senior producer is Ian Kos. Jocelyn Gonzalez is Director of Pier X Productions. Devin Maverick Robbins is the managing producer of podcast for GBH, and Marsha Bemko is the executive producer of Detours. I'm your host and co-executive producer, Adam Monahan. Our theme music is Once in a Century Storm by Will Daley from the album, National Throat. Thank you all for listening. Have a good one.