DETOURS

Adam Monahan:

I was producing at an Antiques Roadshow event in St. Louis, Missouri back in 2017 when I saw a woman who had a very interesting photo. It's old, black and white, and shows a bunch of people standing in front of a building. The guy in the middle she claimed was the nefarious Wild Western Outlaw Billy the Kid. The woman's name was Maryanne.

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

My maiden name was Heithouse, so Maryanne Heithouse-Daub and I married to Frank Daub.

Adam Monahan:

The photo Maryanne brought that day had been in the family for a long time. Frank and Maryanne had first seen it soon after their wedding in the 1960s when they went to visit Frank's grandma.

Frank Daub:

She had this old sewing machine and there was a drawer there. She opened the drawer and she pulled out that photograph and she handed it to Maryanne and she said, "This is Billy the Kid."

Adam Monahan:

According to Frank's grandma, her sister had married a man with the last name Bonnie. And Billy the Kid had stayed with the Bonnie's for some time. At some point in there, this picture was taken. Grandma thought it was neat.

Frank Daub:

I don't think my grandmother had any idea that there could be possible value in an image of this guy.

Adam Monahan:

Neither did Frank and Maryanne. They took the photo home, put it in a drawer, and didn't think about it much until they heard of another Billy photo that could be worth a lot of money.

Frank Daub:

That kind of piqued my interest. I thought, well, hey, if it raises that kind of attention, let's see if we can find out.

Adam Monahan:

Since we're a podcast, actually, can you take the photo out and describe it for our listeners?

Frank Daub:

Sure. Okay. Let me see. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. There are nine guys surrounding the fellow with the suspenders who is supposed to be Billy the Kid, and if you look at Billy in the authenticated one, he's kind of a rat faced little guy. He's got a pointy nose.

Adam Monahan:

When Frank says, "The authenticated one," he's referring to the one and only authenticated photo of Billy the Kid out there, the reference point for every other possible Billy photo in the world.

Frank Daub:

Our Billy the Kid has the same kind of hairstyle. It's dark hair and it's all sloppied all around. He's got a hat on and he's wearing it on the back of his head. His shoulders slope a lot and that's evidently one of the identifying-

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Almost not ...

Frank Daub:

Yeah, almost non shoulder.

Adam Monahan:

Frank went online and found a person who analyzed photos like this. She used photo imaging software and determined this guy didn't look that much like the authenticated Billy, and since there was no documentation tying it to the Kid, that was that. But when Maryanne was coming to our event, they decided she should bring the photo along just in case.

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

My husband's grandmother gave him that picture in about 1965 with a bunch of family pictures, and she said that her sister married into the Bonnie family and he was on the run and he came and lived with them and took their ...

Adam Monahan:

When I saw Maryanne's photo, I grabbed our appraiser, Wes Cowan. You see, a documentary had just come out about another possible Billy the Kid photo that was a lot like this one, an old photo of a guy who looked an awful lot like Billy, but with no chain of custody proving what it was, and I knew Wes had a lot of thoughts about photos like that.

Wes Cowan:

Well, which one do you think was supposedly Billy the Kid?

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

I think she thought the one that was in suspenders.

Wes Cowan:

The guy in the suspenders?

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Uh-huh.

Wes Cowan:

The first thing I would tell you is that the photographic paper ...

Adam Monahan:

In this episode, the story of Billy the Kid, why his image remains so sought after and notoriously rare. It's a story about the limits of technology, the value of historical accuracy and the power of belief. And a question, is there a second photo out there?

I'm Adam Monahan, a producer with GBHs Antiques Roadshow, and this is Detours. Today, Billy the Kid? Billy the Kid has been depicted and described in films, TV shows, books, comics, podcasts, you name it, but his life is still a bit of a mystery.

John Boessenecker:

The problem with Billy the Kid is outlaws were not Elizabethan characters. They didn't leave journals and diaries and correspondence. They, many of them use numerous different names, so trying to track them is very, very difficult.

Adam Monahan:

Can you just introduce yourself and what you're known or your field of expertise is?

John Boessenecker:

I'm John Boessenecker. I'm a western historian and author. I've been writing about the Old West since 1968 and I'm the author of 13 books about outlaws and lawmen of the Old West and about a hundred magazine articles.

Adam Monahan:

Still, there are a few things we do know for sure about Billy the Kid. Here's our appraiser, Wes Cowan.

Wes Cowan:

Well, he was not Billy the Kid originally. He was born Henry McCarty in 1859 in New York. His family immigrated west. His mother died very young. By the time he was 15, he had been abandoned by his father. At 16, he was caught stealing some food and a few weeks later he robbed a Chinese grocery in New Mexico and became a wanted character. He fled to Arizona territory around 1877 and renamed himself as William Bonney, B-O-N-N-E-Y.

Adam Monahan:

So to dodge the law, Henry became William. William became Billy, and Billy became Billy the Kid. He was basically a lone teen at this point.

John Boessenecker:

He, like any young person in the west was extremely independent, tough and expert horseman. He could ride 50 miles a day with no problem at all, sleep under the open sky, kill his own game to feed himself. There's no social safety net back then, you survived or you died. It was very simple.

Adam Monahan:

Around this time, Billy fled Arizona and made his way to Lincoln County, New Mexico. New Mexico and Arizona were still territories at this point, and it was most definitely the Wild West. There was just one store in Lincoln County run by these guys named Murphy and Dolan, who also monopolized the banks and ran lucrative cattle ranches. But Billy went to work for this new rancher in Lincoln, an Englishman named John Tunstall.

John Boessenecker:

Tunstall, he shows up, he then creates an immediate threat to the powers that be. Billy the Kid went to work for John Tunstall. By all accounts, he admired him greatly and Tunstall was shot down and murdered, and that triggered the Lincoln County War.

Adam Monahan:

And what is the Lincoln County War?

John Boessenecker:

The Lincoln County War was an economic struggle for power and control in northern New Mexico. Both sides in the Lincoln County War recruited these bands of what we call gunfighters today. Billy the Kid's group called themselves The Regulators, but this was a common term in the 19th century for a vigilante group. So Regulators were not law officers, they didn't wear badges. They simply received that title or took that title because it meant the same thing as a vigilante.

Adam Monahan:

So it was Dolan and Murphy's guise against Tunstall's Regulators. The Lincoln County War lasted from 1878 to 1879, and a lot happened in that time. The Regulators shot and killed Lincoln County Sheriff, William Brady and his deputy. The new sheriff killed the leader of the Regulators and the US Army was brought in. In the end, Billy the Kid was convicted for Sheriff Brady's murder and sentenced to hang, but he managed to escape.

John Boessenecker:

The stories are that he had escaped from the Lincoln County Courthouse, killed two deputy sheriff and deputy marshall, and that really made him extremely notorious because killing two lawmen and escaping was not very normal for the old West.

Adam Monahan:

In 1880, a man named Pat Garrett was elected sheriff of Lincoln. He was an old friend of Billy the Kid's, but now he was charged with finding the outlaw and exacting justice. He heard that Billy was staying with a mutual friend named Pedro Pete Maxwell in nearby Fort Sumner. So he headed to Maxwell's house. It was in the middle of the night and Billy wasn't there yet.

John Boessenecker:

Billy the Kid is actually in town, and as he comes up to the house, he sees two Anglos sitting on the front steps and he walks by them and he steps into Pete Maxwell's bedroom and he says in Spanish to Pete Maxwell, "Who are those two fellows sitting out on the front porch?" And then before Maxwell can answer, he sees a shadowy figure sitting on the side of Pete Maxwell's bed, and the Kid says, "[foreign language 00:10:31]. Who's that? Who's that?" And Garrett fires and kills him instantly.

Adam Monahan:

Billy was just 22. He was already known in New Mexico territory, but he didn't become nationally famous until Pat Garrett, the guy who'd killed him, released a biography of the young outlaw together with a ghostwriter, at least in part to clear his own name. Much of what we know about Billy comes from this book, but the authors couldn't afford to travel to research Billy's early life.

John Boessenecker:

So Garrett and his ghostwriter just fabricated the facts that they didn't know about, which is something that was not looked down on in that era.

Adam Monahan:

Since then, there have been countless portrayals of Billy in film, Young Guns, Young Guns II, The Kid, Old Henry. He even appeared in films that weren't about him, like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, and that's just the screen portrayals.

John Boessenecker:

We have several new books about Billy the Kid have just come out in the last year that have all kinds of new information that's never been published before, and we're talking way over a hundred years since his death.

Adam Monahan:

But Garrett's book had one special thing that nobody else had, an authenticated photo. If you've seen a picture of Billy the Kid, it's this one. It's a grainy black and white portrait of a young man wearing cowboy boots, a sweater, a vest, a bandana, and a top hat with this hand on a shotgun that's propped up kind of like a walking cane.

John Boessenecker:

There was a traveling photographer who took a picture of him and he's arm to the teeth. He stepped right into the photographer's tent and got the photograph taken wearing what he would've worn in everyday attire.

Adam Monahan:

The photo is a tin type.

John Boessenecker:

A tin type was a photograph taken on this emulsion process, which used tin rather than the earlier degario types, which were done on glass, amber types were done on glass, and then albumin prints, which costs more money, those were the first paper photographs and first available in the United States about 1859. But the tin types were much cheaper and the camera produced four identical images on one plate, and then the photographer would use tin snips to cut them into four images.

Adam Monahan:

Three of those four original Billy the Kid tin types have been lost. The one remaining copy was passed down through the family of one of Billy's friends.

John Boessenecker:

And that went to the museum in Lincoln, New Mexico. It was on display there for many years. Finally, that museum closed. It was returned to the family and it was auctioned and sold. And Bill Koch, the famous oil man and collector of the Old West. Bill, bought it for $2.3 million.

Adam Monahan:

That sale was back in 2011.

John Boessenecker:

And that's when Billy the Kid photographs started coming out of the woodwork.

Adam Monahan:

Many of them were presented to our appraiser, Wes Cowan.

Wes Cowan:

Over the years, I have sold as many, if not more outlaw photographs than any auction house in the country. I've sold just about everybody except for Billy the Kid. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't get offered photographs of Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, Tom Horn, the Daltons, you name it, on a weekly basis.

Adam Monahan:

What is it about outlaws? Why do people like to collect these photos?

Wes Cowan:

Well, because these guys are outside the law. They are an element of society that has always attracted attention. And these people continue to attract attention. All you have to do is watch the evening news every day, look in the newspaper every day, and there's always some story about a carjacking or a bank robbery or some sort of crime. A hundred years, the interest in these people was no different than the interest there is today.

Adam Monahan:

True crime sells, it's the truth.

Wes Cowan:

Absolutely.

Adam Monahan:

Crime sells and photos sell, and so these outlaw photos keep showing up. Many of them go nowhere, but one alleged photo of Billy got a lot of attention back in 2016. Tell us about the croquet photo from the Nat Geo documentary.

John Boessenecker:

Well, that photograph was first shown to me at the Grass Valley California Old West Show at least 10 years ago, when the owner, who's a very nice gentleman, had this very nice tin type image. And he had a big blowup of it, and it showed a bunch of unknown people playing croquet in front of an old building. I asked him, "Well, where did the photograph come from?" And he said, "Well, it came out of a secondhand shop in Fresno, California." As soon as I find out that they found the photo in a flea market, it's like case closed.

Adam Monahan:

If it's from a flea market, there's no story of how it got there, no provenance. So experts can't definitely say who the photo's of, but someone else saw this picture and wasn't so sure it was that cut and dried.

Jeff Aiello:

I was convinced it at least deserved a closer look than a quick dismissal of, "No, it's not."

Adam Monahan:

This is Jeff Aiello, an executive producer on the National Geographic documentary Billy the Kid: New Evidence. This photo was a tin type, four by six inches and it shows about a dozen adults and a few kids. All the way on the right, a man and a woman ride on horseback. The folks towards the left are playing croquet, and right in the middle of the croquet players is a young man wearing a sweater and a top hat. The photo is owned by a man named Randy [inaudible 00:16:56]. What did he tell you in that first meeting of why he thought this was Billy the Kid?

Jeff Aiello:

It's the posture of Billy. Obviously, it's the top hat that Billy was known to wear. Billy had some clothing on that was known to be the type of clothing that he would wear. A ring, you can clearly see a ring on Billy's pinky finger and Billy was known to wear a gambling ring, what they would call in the day because if you, let's say you ran out of all your money or your chips, you could always pull that ring off and throw that on the table. So Billy was known to wear one of those.

Adam Monahan:

There were enough tantalizing details to get Jeff's attention, but even so, he gets why people might have their doubts that this photo is the real deal.

Jeff Aiello:

Lincoln County was the largest county in America at the time. It was a vast expanse and not a lot of humans out there, and photography was still sort of a new thing. By my research, there's only two photographers in a hundred-mile circle at any time in that area. You have to wrap your brain on all of that to appreciate a photograph like this.

A lot of the photographs taken back in those days, like the Billy the Kid archetype photograph, they were taken in a studio or in a barn or in a place that was set up. An outdoor image of some of the most notorious gun slingers in the American West right after the Lincoln County War when we think this photograph was made, it's a special deal. So that was sort of what captivated me from the beginning.

Adam Monahan:

That's right. Jeff doesn't think Billy's the only notable character in this photo.

Jeff Aiello:

There in this picture with Billy, clearly to me was Charlie Bowdre, and Tom O'Folliard, and Big Jim French and all these people that we had photographs of and they really lined up well.

Adam Monahan:

Charlie Bowdre, Tom O'Folliard, and Big Jim French were a few of the other Regulators who fought alongside Billy in the Lincoln County War. So yeah, if that's true, this photo is a big freaking deal. Jeff partnered with Left Field Pictures, the production studio behind reality TV shows like Pawn Stars, and together they brought the idea to National Geographic. After the break, we learn how Jeff and his team tried to prove this photo was authentic using both historical documents and science. And we'll learn what happened with the photo that was brought to our show.

The picture in Jeff Aiello's documentary looks nothing like that one authenticated Billy the Kid photo. That one shows Billy closeup and clearly posed. The so-called croquet photo shows a bunch of people. It's taken from very far away and it's missing one key item that Western outlaws were known to carry.

Jeff Aiello:

If it's Billy the Kid and it's Tom O'Folliard, and Charlie Bowdre, and Big Jim French, where's the iron? Where's the guns? Every other picture of all these outlaws, they were always proud to show off their hardware. And yet here's a picture with not one gun being shown, which actually was a clue for us because, oh, wait a second, this is a special occasion.

Adam Monahan:

They determined that it was the wedding of Regulator, Charlie Bowdre in 1880. Among the evidence was the diary of a woman named Sally Chisholm, who is sort of one of those journal keeping Elizabethan characters that John Boessenecker said we need.

Jeff Aiello:

Sally Chisholm was the daughter of John Chisholm who was kind of the big major player in the beef industry in southern New Mexico in that time period.

Adam Monahan:

Billy worked on the Chisholm ranch for a while and he and Sally became friends. He appeared in her diary a lot.

Jeff Aiello:

And so we had a written record from Sally's diary whenever he would visit, whenever they would ride together, whenever they would go on ... Sometimes they would go on roundups together and that helped us follow those movements. And she was detailed with who she included in that diary.

Adam Monahan:

What did the diary say? Why do we think Billy the Kid is there with those people?

Jeff Aiello:

Everybody that's in the photograph is either in written form in the diary, Sally Chisholm's diary or in other written records are available to be in that spot and they're close to it. She talks about the wedding coming up. She even talks about ordering things for the wedding, like decorations and place settings and it's all there. It's pretty crazy.

Adam Monahan:

A croquet set? No.

Jeff Aiello:

No, I think that was already on the ground.

Adam Monahan:

The only issue, Sally didn't actually write about the wedding itself, who was there or where it took place.

Jeff Aiello:

Sally kept really detailed records on stuff, especially when she went to market, like when they went to go to the store or sent people to go to the store in town, she would write down, "A bag of flour and two bags of sugar," and she kept really good detailed records. So why wouldn't she write the detailed records of this wedding?

Adam Monahan:

Jeff has a theory.

Jeff Aiello:

At the time, Billy the Kid, and most of those guys in that photograph were fugitives from law. So did she leave stuff out of her diary to protect herself?

Adam Monahan:

Maybe, but that's just a guess. We can't prove why someone didn't write something down in the year 1880. What we need is science and technology like facial recognition software. So Jeff and his team found a facial recognition expert named Kent Gibson to run the analysis.

Jeff Aiello:

When we ran it on Billy, his percentages were high. I think they were in the seventies or eighties. Anything like over 60 is considered pretty good. When you ran it on Charlie Bowdre, really high. When you ran it on Big Jim French, really high. So if it was just a picture of Billy, then those odds are not even there. But because you've got these other people and they all have high facial recognition and probability and then they're all together, they're known to have traveled together during those years. So when you factor all that in, the math starts getting really, really good for authenticity of this photograph.

Adam Monahan:

Well, not according to our appraiser, Wes Cowan.

Wes Cowan:

Facial imaging technology works best when you have a fairly large image of someone. This image is four by six inches and there are like how many people, a dozen people. And the photographers set up his camera, I'm going to guess it looks like maybe 30 yards away so he could take in the whole scene. So that means that each picture of those faces on those individuals is about the size or maybe smaller than a pencil eraser.

Also, image quality is important and most of the images in this picture are not very sharp. And finally, facial imaging technology works best when there are multiple images of the same person that you can feed into the algorithm that will generate the recognition. When there's only one photograph, it's virtually impossible to do a real accurate comparison. You end up saying, "Well, it kind of looks like him, but I don't know."

Adam Monahan:

It's a bit of a catch-22. To analyze photos, you need to have photos. So the more authenticated photos there are, the easier it is to authenticate more photos. But facial recognition software and the diary weren't the only thing going for this photo. They also matched up the mountains in the background with images from Google Earth.

In the film, they presented evidence that the photo was taken on one spot on John Tunstall's ranch. That's the guy whose murder set off the Lincoln County War. There's a schoolhouse in that spot on the ranch, but Jeff's not so sure about that location anymore.

Jeff Aiello:

I don't believe that the location we found in the film is the location where the photograph was taken. I will say it looks similar, but if you look at the photograph, in the background behind the big white oaks, there are prominent peaks that have a very defined pyramidical structure to them and those flat out aren't there.

And I was voicing this concern on location when we were filming the end of the film. I was descent, the one descent of this belief system. And so we went along with it and it's something I regret, to be honest with you because I didn't stand up for what I believed in at the time.

Adam Monahan:

And so again, the location that we think this is, do we think this is Tunstall's ranch?

Jeff Aiello:

Yes. Even though I don't think the photograph is in the exact location as that schoolhouse is currently, that schoolhouse is on the old Tunstall ranch. I believe it was taken in like a 10-mile circle. It's in that area. The actual Tunstall ranch, his home site is still there and that's only two miles away. So this is the Tunstall ranch.

Adam Monahan:

That little location question though doesn't change the outcome for Jeff.

Jeff Aiello:

Personally, if someone had a gun to my head and said, "Yes or no, we know if the picture's real, do you think it's real?" I think the picture's real.

Adam Monahan:

I always fall back to plausible. This is a very plausible picture of Billy the Kid compared to other ones with people just saying like, "I've got a picture of Billy Kid." The collecting community though wants to see in Sally Chisholm's diary, "We were on the ranch, we took a photo here. The photographer was there. Billy was there. We played croquet." They want irrefutable evidence like that. Whereas I feel like the romantic in me, I want this to be Billy the Kid.

Jeff Aiello:

Yes, exactly. You get into that world of, I want to believe it's true. I feel that way about Bigfoot. I haven't seen a really good proof of Bigfoot yet, but I really want there to be a large bipedal North American ape species we haven't discovered yet. So there's people really hoping for this photograph to be real. Then there's people that are just like, "No way, Jose. Not going to happen." They are not going for it. That's what makes this a compelling story because it's not cut or dry. It's not black or white, even though it is.

Adam Monahan:

Randy still owns the photograph today and it's still unauthenticated.

Randy:

It's been auctions a number of times and it's never sold. The reason is that the collectors who have a lot of money to spend, who will spend hundreds of thousands or even more, they are very sophisticated and they're not going to spend their hard-earned money on somebody's wish that this is Billy the Kid.

Adam Monahan:

Did you watch the Nat Geo documentary when it came out? What did you think about it?

Wes Cowan:

I think the documentary was great TV. Did they present a case that the average person might think, "Oh, this is no doubt Billy the Kid?" But I could also present a case to convince you that it's not Billy the Kid. The scene is wrong, the vegetation is wrong. There's no reason why a photographer would be in that area because it's a sparsely populated area. Why would one just sort of be around here?

Adam Monahan:

And even if a photographer were around, Wes says Billy and his gang might just tell them to leave.

Wes Cowan:

If you're an outlaw and you have a bounty on your head, the last thing you want to do is have more photographs of you circulating out there. So why would you go into a photography studio and have your picture taken so the photographer could maybe contact the sheriff and say, "Hey William Bonnie, Billy the Kid was just in my studio an hour ago. Come get him."

Adam Monahan:

And then there's the provenance issue, not just where has this photo been, but why was nobody keeping track of it?

Wes Cowan:

Billy the Kid was instantly a celebrity when he was killed in 1881. So why would someone who had a photograph of Billy the Kid not keep that and not keep records that I have this, only known, other known photograph of Billy the Kid. Just doesn't make sense.

Adam Monahan:

John Boessenecker agrees. Do you think that there are any actual photos of Billy the Kid that are unknown, floating out there?

John Boessenecker:

Highly improbable. Highly improbable. There could be another original tin of Billy the Kid because there were four of them. But the fact that one of the four has survived is just an absolute miracle. The photograph that depicts a group of men playing croquet is now jokingly referred to in the Western community as Croquet Billy and no published author or historian thinks that it depicts anybody that has anything to do with Billy the Kid. The stories that have been spun about that photograph hold no water.

Adam Monahan:

One of the producers said that they think that they got the location wrong.

John Boessenecker:

Oh yeah, they'll just keep coming up. Honestly, a true believer is not going to believe a word that I say. And a true believer is going to come up with some alternate scenario no matter what is said. But the fact is the photograph came out of a secondhand shop and that's not how you obtain historic images.

Adam Monahan:

All right, well thank you very much, John. I appreciate it.

John Boessenecker:

Okay. Thanks a million.

Adam Monahan:

More like five million, which by the way is how much Jeff thinks the Croquet Billy photo could sell for.

Jeff Aiello:

I think if you had bulletproof provenance, I think it would be worth more than five million.

Adam Monahan:

Thanks to the documentary, Jeff has joined Wes and John in being a target for people who think they could have that photo that will change everything.

Jeff Aiello:

After this thing aired, I was inundated with phone calls, emails from people all over the world, mostly in the United States that had a picture of Jesse James, or of Billy the Kid, or of Butch Cassidy. And some of these pictures weren't even close to who they thought. You could literally hold up a known picture of Jesse James and then you could hold up this other picture and it's like you're not even remotely close, but people believe.

Adam Monahan:

People like our guests, Frank and Maryanne, the ones who brought their picture to Roadshow, even after a forensic expert said it wasn't a match. Wes saw right away that it couldn't be Billy and he didn't need facial imaging to know that.

Wes Cowan:

The photographic paper is a silver gelatin paper that was not made before about 1890. So the photograph-

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Really? So you can tell that?

Wes Cowan:

Yes.

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Okay.

Adam Monahan:

The paper is from 1890 at the earliest. Billy the Kid died in 1881, but still, even knowing there is absolutely no way this is Billy the Kid, Frank, the photo owner can't help but look for clues in the face of the man he calls our Billy the Kid.

Frank Daub:

I'm looking at the authenticated one and the guy's got his eyebrows. He's not a monobrow, but he's pretty close. Well, so is this image. Man, I tell you. No, I'm not an expert. When I look at that though, the squinty little eyes and the ears sticking out. But like I say, how can I argue against identification software?

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Yeah.

Adam Monahan:

Frank didn't come to our event that day, but he got the full rundown.

Frank Daub:

My favorite message that my daughter, Maria, brought back is when he said, "Well look, why would an outlaw allow you to take a photograph of him?" And I'm thinking, first of all, there is an authenticated photograph and outlaws in the old West were always being photographed. Sometimes in a box. And that made me kind of think, did he really know? And what is his specialty?

Adam Monahan:

His specialty is antique photographs.

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

I'll be darned.

Frank Daub:

Oh, Mr. Cowan, you're a good man. God bless you.

Adam Monahan:

Well, I appreciate you guys doing this and-

Maryanne Heithouse-Daub:

Thank you so much.

Adam Monahan:

Tell us anymore. I'm good, thank you guys.

Frank Daub:

I've got a photograph of Attila the Hun that I'd like to have Wes look at.

Adam Monahan:

It's period from Attila's life. You can tell by the paper. (Singing). Detours is a production of GBH in Boston and distributed by Purex. This episode was written and produced by Galen Beebe. Sound Design and mixed by Jack Pombriant. And our assistant producer is Sarah Horatius. Our senior producer is Ian Kos. Jocelyn Gonzalez is the director of PRX Productions. Devin Maverick Robbins is the managing producer of podcast for GBH. And Marcia Bemko is the executive producer of Detours. I'm your host and co-executive producer, Adam Monaghan. Our theme music is Once in a Century Storm by Will Daley from the album National Throat. Thank you all for listening. Have a good one.