College Uncovered

Kirk [00:00:00] Okay. So let's talk about students who transfer colleges because a lot of students do it. And to be honest, it's a headache a very expensive headache. Because chances are while a student transfers their credits won't. But don't listen to me. Listen to William Kimani story.

William Kimani [00:00:18] They have this fascination with economics and politics and I wanted to explore that further.

Kirk [00:00:27] Kimani is a student at the University of Chicago, one of this country's most selective private colleges. He's focused, accomplished and doesn't have a lot of money to spare. So to get a head start on his bachelor's degree while he was still in high school in Massachusetts, he took courses at a community college.

William Kimani [00:00:44] When I first started, I didn't really know what I was getting into. But when I started taking college courses, I realized that I really enjoyed the format. More often than not, I really enjoyed questioning professors.

Kirk [00:00:55] Kimani is the son of Kenyan immigrants, and in addition to being a healthy skeptic, he's also a high achiever. Khomeini graduated at the top of his class and earned enough credits to graduate high school not only with a diploma, but an associate degree. Good for Kimani, right? He could save money. Wrong. When he enrolled at U. Chicago, none of his credits would count. Not a single one.

William Kimani [00:01:19] Zero. Getting the emails saying that none of them were going to get transferred was was was quite painful because I feel like the degree that I worked towards was a lot of work, a lot of effort.

Kirk [00:01:37] This is College Uncovered, a podcast pulling back the Ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I'm Kurt Carapaz.

Esteban Bustillos [00:01:45] And I'm Esteban Bustillos. Listen, colleges don't want you to know how they operate. So GBH, in collaboration with The Hechinger Report, wants to show you today on the show The Transfer Trap.

Kirk [00:01:56] Transferring from one college to another. For a lot of us, Esteban, might sound simple on paper, right?

Esteban Bustillos [00:02:02] Yeah, yeah. And we took a long, hard look at the reality on the ground. And the truth is that it can be confusing and pricey once you get past colleges promotions and double talk. And this affects more students than you might think. More than 1 in 3 college students will transfer 1 in 3. That's more than 2 million students in the US each year.

Kirk [00:02:22] Okay, so let's talk about how so many of those transfer students end up paying more because of colleges rules around what they will and won't accept. The federal government's Accountability Office finds that about 43% of the credits they already earned and paid for end up not going with them. I'm just going to repeat that because it's really astounding. More than four out of ten credits for classes transfer students have taken don't count for anything, meaning those classes were a waste of time and money.

Esteban Bustillos [00:02:52] Yeah, Kirk. That can cost all those transfer students dollars they didn't expect to have to spend.

Kirk [00:02:57] Yeah, and it can prevent them from graduating on time or ever.

Esteban Bustillos [00:03:01] We looked it up. And here's the number $6 billion transfer. Students collectively waste $6 billion a year and tuition on classes that don't transfer. We got that number from the National College Transfer Center.

Kirk [00:03:13] And having to repeat courses is one reason students now take an average of more than five years to graduate with the bachelor's degree. So college costs those students even more than they already thought it would. We'll have much more on how long it takes to graduate in our next episode. Graduation frustration.

Esteban Bustillos [00:03:30] But if colleges say they want their students to graduate and get ahead in their careers, then why are they denying credits from other schools and requiring students to retake those courses?

Kirk [00:03:39] The short answer, of course, is money. They want your tuition dollars.

Esteban Bustillos [00:03:44] Of course they do. So I'm still thinking about what happened to William Kimani, Kirk. What did the University of Chicago say about why they didn't accept his community college credits from high school?

Kirk [00:03:54] Well, we called them up and a spokesperson told me transfer credits have to come from institutions that grant bachelor's degrees. Not high schools, not even community colleges.

Esteban Bustillos [00:04:04] So that's really interesting because ultimately that's going to take the biggest toll on lower income students. And just about every student at a community college.

Kirk [00:04:12] Right. And students at community colleges in particular often have the intention of transferring and getting a bachelor's degree. And guess what? That's what most community college students plan to do. They overwhelmingly hope to transfer into a four year college or university.

Esteban Bustillos [00:04:26] Right, right. These are students that are often working full time while attending school, but still want a bachelor's degree. Many don't make the jump for a lot of complicated financial reasons, and the ones that do transfer, they lose nearly a third of their credits one third, and have to repeat coursework.

Kirk [00:04:43] So we spoke with Francesca Purcell about all of this. She lectures at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. And she says, as businesses, many colleges treat potential students like customers.

Francesca Purcell [00:04:54] Colleges or businesses.

Kirk [00:04:55] That means transfer students lose out because while there's a big financial incentive to enroll students.

Francesca Purcell [00:05:01] There is not a big incentive to accept all of their credits.

William Kimani [00:05:05] Why not?

Francesca Purcell [00:05:05] Given the financial situation that most four year institutions are at, they need to survive.

Esteban Bustillos [00:05:11] And their survival can come at the expense of low and middle income students. We interviewed Simba Gandhari, who worked his way through college and made every dollar counts, every cent, but still got a raw deal when he transferred.

Simba Gandhari [00:05:23] It was highly important for all of my credits to transfer because I needed to graduate within two years. I was trying to figure out how would I even be able to extend another semester and pay for it, and have the time to do it.

Esteban Bustillos [00:05:40] Simba emigrated to the U.S. from Zimbabwe. He worked a bunch of jobs and still had to fight to transfer his credits from a technical school in South Carolina to a four year college in Wisconsin. He was hoping to graduate early with less debt. At first, administrators agreed to accept all of his technical college credits. Then, just as he neared graduation and a bachelor's degree in sports management, his academic advisor told him he still needed to take one more English class. Got to get that Shakespeare, even though he had taken several already in South Carolina.

Simba Gandhari [00:06:14] It started to feel as if I was just another body and another way to make tuition.

Esteban Bustillos [00:06:21] Oof, dadgum. That's tough. In the end, the college agreed to accept his technical school English credit, but only after he had the guts to. Email the college's president explaining how he was working to support himself and his family. They really wanted the extra Shakespeare, huh.

Kirk [00:06:38] Now, Esteban, we should stop here and say a few states, including Washington, have adopted transfer student bills of rights, encouraging students to ask more questions about whether their credits will transfer.

Esteban Bustillos [00:06:49] Interesting. So how does that work?

Kirk [00:06:50] Yeah. So the trouble is here. Knowing whether your credits will transfer isn't enough. You need to know if they'll apply to your intended major. That's where a lot of students end up hitting a wall because they can't apply their credits to their specific major. And it's often some states require universities to provide clear information about transfer policies and then let students appeal when their credits aren't accepted. But experts say it's mostly on students to fight back.

Martin Kurzweil [00:07:17] Unfortunately, that is the case. There's often a right to know, but inadequate support to help students make sound decisions based on that knowledge.

Kirk [00:07:27] Martin Kurzweil is a senior researcher with the nonprofit research firm Ithaca Center. He says student advisors play a critical role at the institutions where students begin their higher education.

Martin Kurzweil [00:07:39] But it's also imperative that destination colleges take transfer students more seriously and have dedicated advisors who are there to help not just students when they enroll, but applicants with decision making about the transfer opportunity.

Kirk [00:07:59] We'll have much more on solutions to this problem later in this episode, so stick around for that. For colleges, Harvard's Francesca Purcell says fixing the broken transfer credit pipeline as a critical issue, and one that could improve racial and economic diversity on campuses.

Francesca Purcell [00:08:15] If we could solve student transfer from community colleges would serve the highest numbers of students, from low income families, from students of color. It would truly be transformative.

Kirk [00:08:26] And you might say it would be more fair. Colleges are saying one thing we support diversity, equity and inclusion. We want you to graduate on time and with less debt. And yet, their systems are making it harder for transfer students, especially black, Hispanic and low income students who may be at a disadvantage.

Esteban Bustillos [00:08:45] So we caught up with William Kimani back in Chicago on his way to class.

Kirk [00:08:50] He never got any of his credits accepted, and he's still rightfully unhappy about it. He makes a pretty logical argument, too. He says calculus is calculus and it doesn't matter where you take it, Esteban. In fact, he says some of the community college courses he took in high school were better than the ones he took at the elite university level, because the class sizes were smaller and the teachers were much more engaging.

Esteban Bustillos [00:09:12] So what's disturbing about Kimani story is how four year institutions that won't accept community college credits still accept Advanced placement credits from high schools. Research shows black and indigenous students have unequal access to AP coursework, so those students are at a disadvantage again in this process.

Kirk [00:09:29] And Kimani says this all exposes these institutions as businesses, businesses that cater to white and Asian students with money.

William Kimani [00:09:38] I think it kind of shows ingrained inequality preferences towards, you know, suburban, more affluent students.

Kirk [00:09:46] And he says it shows where colleges priorities really are.

Esteban Bustillos [00:10:00] Okay okay okay. So now let's talk about potential solutions and what students and their families can do to avoid the dreaded transfer trap, quote unquote. We just heard about the real life consequences of transferring from a two year to a four year college, and how colleges benefit when students lose credits in the transfer process.

Kirk [00:10:18] The transfer credit problem has been an open secret for some time now, but I think it's more widespread than many of us realize.

Esteban Bustillos [00:10:26] Right, it's something that harms low income students and first generation students whose families might not know how the business of college really works.

Kirk [00:10:34] Joining us now to explore solutions is Martin Kurzweil, who we heard from earlier. Martin is a senior researcher with the nonprofit research firm Ithaca Snr. His team is trying to change policies that would decrease the number of students affected by so-called stranded credits. Some states have a Transfer Students Bill of rights.

Martin Kurzweil [00:10:54] Specifically focused on the community college to bachelor's college pathway. No matter which survey you look at, more than 80% of community college students say that they have a goal of earning a bachelor's degree, but fewer than 20% do.

Kirk [00:11:10] Okay, so we've established that the credits that students worked so hard to earn may not count towards their bachelor's degree or their major. What's the consequences of that?

Martin Kurzweil [00:11:20] In most cases, students have no idea how the credits they're earning will count towards the degree when they transfer to another college. Typically colleges receiving transfer students don't inform them about which transfer credits will count towards degree requirements until after they have accepted the offer of admission, and sometimes they don't even let them know until after they register for their first term of courses at the new college. So think about that. The students have to commit to not just colleges, but seven times to specific classes that they're going to take before they ever know how their previously earned credits will count.

Kirk [00:12:03] We've been focusing on community college students, but this affects everybody. At 43% of all, college credits don't end up transferring and counting towards a new degree.

Martin Kurzweil [00:12:11] Absolutely. This is not just a problem for a community college students, and some students are worse off than others. The students that are in the most difficult position are those who attended a for profit college and are trying to transfer In some cases, as many as 90% of their credits won't count when they transfer.

Kirk [00:12:32] Well, okay, so that's a huge problem. How do you suggest we fix it?

Martin Kurzweil [00:12:36] Transparency and advance notice as well as support to take advantage of that information or to establish transfer pathways, usually by major or by field of study, where students have a clear direction for what they need to take at the first college they attend, and how it will count and what they need to take at the second college they attend in order to earn their bachelor's degree.

Kirk [00:13:06] And I understand your research team has some pilot experiments going on in the field now. What works and how do you how do you know?

Martin Kurzweil [00:13:12] So we have studied some of the great examples of those kinds of pathways that are out there. George Mason University and Northern Virginia Community College have program called advance where students are, essentially admitted to, both colleges, both institutions, at the beginning of their career. And they have they have a degree plan that they follow, from one college to another. But we're also working, directly with, institutions and state systems of higher education to bring more transparency. In another way, we have developed, a tool, a website called Transfer Explorer, initially with the City University of New York, which takes information about how transfer credits count towards degree programs at the City University of New York. That's already in the, the data systems that the City University of New York uses. And we have, made that information totally transparent and publicly available, on this website, Transfer Explorer. So anyone students, advisors, you, me and go and see how any credit that Suny, any Cuny college has ever evaluated will count towards a degree program. And that kind of radical transparency is really transformative.

Kirk [00:14:43] We're talking to Martin Kurzweil with the nonprofit research firm Ithaca Center about stranded credits. So if I'm a student or a parent, what do you recommend that I do to know whether my credits will transfer?

Martin Kurzweil [00:14:58] Well, in the absence of that kind of, helpful advertising, it really is on students and those who support them, their parents, their families to, advocate for themselves. So I would advise anyone considering transfer to, scour the resources available at their current institution, as well as any institution that they're considering, to find out as much information as you can from those resources about how credits will transfer and how they'll count towards the degree programs that you're interested in. Make sure to reach out. Don't just rely on published resources on the web, but reach out to the admissions office, or the transfer office, or the advising office at the institution. If you're considering and explain your particular situation and what information you want to know about transfer. And then finally, if you do transfer and you get a result that, that doesn't benefit you, if you find out that things you were expecting would count, don't count in the way that you, anticipate, then don't take no for an answer. There's often an opportunity to appeal. And, decisions can be made on a case by case basis. Help students get through. So be your own best advocate is the best advice I can. I can offer right now.

Kirk [00:16:27] It's good advice. Martin Kurzweil is a researcher with the nonprofit research firm Ithaca. S+R. Martin, thanks so much for your perspective.

Martin Kurzweil [00:16:35] Thank you. Kirk. It was a pleasure.

Esteban Bustillos [00:16:49] Okay. Joining us now is John Marcus, education editor with our editorial partner, The Hechinger Report. Hey, John.

John Marcus [00:16:55] Hey, Esteban.

Esteban Bustillos [00:16:56] So, John, how bad is this problem with transfers?

John Marcus [00:16:59] I mean, in my reporting, this is one of the biggest frustrations college students have. They feel like they keep having to retake credits and pay for them again and go through all that time. I talked with John Casey, who's a college counseling consultant. She works with students who transfer. She says it's almost inevitable that students will lose credits when they transfer. You know, usually most colleges will not transfer anything below a c-plus and some may not even take those. And often they're, you know, they're going to be your core academic classes. They're also, sometimes they want students to take their own intro, you know, for certain majors, too. So students absolutely can lose a lot of credits trying to transfer. So, you know, some sometimes, you know, it's just a matter of counseling them, you know, helping them think through like, what is this going to mean at the next school? How much will you have to stay for an extra semester and helping them understand the reality of that before they make that big decision?

Esteban Bustillos [00:17:58] So, John, in your reporting, have you found any signs of hope?

John Marcus [00:18:01] Yeah, actually, now that they're strapped for students and need more students to transfer, some colleges have managed to guarantee transfer credits. A lot of them started doing this during Covid when they really needed students, and it worked. So they've kept it up. They've made it permanent. You know, colleges have this problem where a significant, number of high school students are choosing not to go to college after high school, on top of which, they're about to see this huge decline in the number of 18 year olds just because of of sort of birth rate trends. Another reason for this, in addition to increasing their enrollment, is the social justice movement that got a lot of four year colleges to accept more community college transfers. Community college students tend to be a lot more racially diverse than students at selective four year universities, and admitting them can help those universities diversify. That's going to be more important now that affirmative action is off the table in admitting freshmen. So, for example, in Pennsylvania, Dickinson College has a partnership with five neighboring community colleges. It's taking about 58 transfer students from those colleges, and about a third of them were of a race other than white. And that's a lot at a college that has a very low percentage of black and Hispanic students. There's also one other solution helping students. Here's Joan Casey again, the college counseling consultant.

Joan Casey [00:19:21] The other thing about transfers is I always try to talk to them, to help them think about how they can be happy where they are, you know? Yeah. Because, like, I get a lot of calls in December and I'll say, okay, like, you know, here are the things we advise you do. Did you join anything? Well, no, because I was trying to focus on classes. Well, what could you join? Let's go through the cat like I always. And then, like, you'll check in with them, like two months later and they'll be like, oh, I forgot I called you. Oh, yeah. I love it here.

Esteban Bustillos [00:19:51] Yeah. That works magic. John, thank you so much.

John Marcus [00:19:54] Thanks for having me.

Kirk [00:19:57] Okay, so, Esteban, let's sum up a bit here before we go. If you're a transfer student, what can you do to avoid the transfer trap? First, seek guidance. Reach out to an advisor and explain your specific situation. Second, ask if your program has a transfer agreement with another school. Some colleges have these so-called articulation agreements, but approval is always up to the registrar's office. Nothing about this seems to be black and white, but credits from accredited programs are more likely to transfer, and most credits will only transfer if you've earned a B or higher. Then ask the admissions office at the school where you're considering transferring before you make your decision. And finally, once you've enrolled, if you find out that all of your credits still don't count as you would expected, don't take no for an answer. Appeal to administrators. Or like simple Gandhari did get the guts and emailed the college president. Be your own best advocate.

Esteban Bustillos [00:20:57] Know your worth. This is college uncovered. I'm Esteban Bustillos.

Kirk [00:21:01] And I'm Kirk Carapaz. Our show is created by John Marcus.

Esteban Bustillos [00:21:04] And Kirk, and it's edited by Meg Woodhouse.

Kirk [00:21:07] Gary Mott and Dave Goodman are our mixs engineers.

Esteban Bustillos [00:21:10] All of our music is by college bands. Our theme music is groundswell by Left Roman out of MIT.

Kirk [00:21:16] College uncovered is made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Esteban Bustillos [00:21:20] We'd love to hear from you. Send us an email to GBHNewsConnect@wgbh.org and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. We'll do our best to get you answers.

Kirk [00:21:31] Thanks so much for listening.