Paris Alston: This is GBH’s Morning Edition. We’ve been hearing a lot about the Democrats’ debate over whether President Biden should continue his run for reelection. Yesterday, Congressman Seth Moulton doubled down on his calls for the president to leave the race when he joined us here on Morning Edition.

Rep. Seth Moulton: With all due respect, Mr. President, this is not about you. This is about the future of our country, the future of our democracy.

Alston: But the state’s Democratic Party is coming out in full support. So if you are a Republican who does not want to see former President Trump retake the White House, how might you be seeing this? For more on that perspective, we’re joined by former Massachusetts chair of the GOP Jennifer Nassour. Good morning. Thanks for being here.

Jennifer Nassour: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Alston: So, Jennifer, up until now, how were so-called Never Trumpers at large planning to vote? And how does this change things?

Nassour: Well, I mean, I think for everyone, it’s always — look, I mean, let me just start with some facts, right? So 70% of Americans didn’t want to see another Trump and Biden showdown. 70%. That’s not an insignificant number. And about 60% feel like both of them are too old. So if we just go based off of those facts and figures, right, it’s everyone. Everyone. The majority of American voters were waiting for some dark horse candidate to come out, or for either party to come to their senses and say, we need someone who is younger, who is wiser, who is fresher, who doesn’t call people names, but also has an understanding of what is going on in the world today. And so I think that on both sides we are looking for that. I think now we’re at a point where I don’t think there’s any — for the Republican side, the ship has sailed. It’s Trump. I think so many of us are just waiting to see who the vice presidential pick is. And Trump months ago said it doesn’t matter who the VP is — no, it does. It actually does when you are in your late 70s, because Biden was in his late 70s when he was first elected, and we see the decline in his mental acuity from then to now. So I have no faith in having a president who’s in his late 70s be elected. But with that, when we saw in that debate last week, that was watching a train wreck. It was so — I had just gotten back from Europe. It was so embarrassing to watch that on an international stage that people were watching that debate because people in Europe knew that that was going on.

Alston: Yes.

Nassour: As they were going through their own elections.

Alston: And it’s gotten us where we are now. So, Jennifer, with all of that, would you say that it’s so far gone as far as any Republican support for Biden, or is there anything he can do to convince voters otherwise?

Nassour: Not only is there no support for Biden, I think from the Republican side, I think that, you know, those, what, 35% of voters that still don’t know what they’re going to do, have now said, I wouldn’t vote for Biden if it was — I mean, at this point, Trump could really do what he said back in 2015-16, shoot someone in the face in the middle of Fifth Avenue and still get reelected. Or the other thing that’s going to happen is voter apathy, which is what I’m concerned about, which we should all be concerned about, is that people sit at home, sit on their hands and just let a small minority decide the election.

Alston: Is there a chance, I mean, you mentioned this idea of a dark horse candidate, but could the Democrats put forth someone that Republicans who don’t want to see another Trump presidency, that they could get behind?

Nassour: Well, I mean, I think it depends on who it is, right? If you have someone like AOC, you’re never — that’s never gonna happen. You know, where if you have someone like a Joe Manchin, I think that, you know, or Kyrsten Sinema, I think that those are different candidates, right? Those are more moderate. I don’t see that the Democratic Party is at that point right now. You know, and I’ve made these comments to my Democratic colleagues that, listen, if you’re not going to replace Biden, replace Kamala Harris, because the writing is on the wall. Look, I mean, it was elder abuse. For Jill Biden to allow her husband to go out on that stage last week is really, seriously elder abuse. That is so not fair. And so if you’re not going to replace him, replace Kamala Harris, because we know that he’s not going to make it for four years and put in a competent VP.

Alston: And I just want to mention that we have heard from the White House doctor that he, that things have been clear that he’s been and, you know, there have obviously been visits from a neurological doctor to the White House. So we’re not exactly sure what the president’s condition is, but I do hear you about those concerns. Now, at the same time, I am curious, Jennifer, you mentioned that former President Trump is the same age, or at least two years younger than the president. So why is he not getting the same treatment in terms of how we’re viewing age and condition?

Nassour: Well, I mean, because if you if you look at it, not everyone is the same way, right? I mean, Trump, for as vulgar as he, is and the things that he says that are just, you know, make you shake your head, and you wish that someone would just like, tape his mouth shut for once, you know, as much as that, when you listen to him, he actually has a grasp on policy, and he actually has a grasp on what’s going on in the world. My mom is 80 and my stepfather is 84. I mean, there is a vast difference between where they are mentally. All of us are wired differently. Right? We have different DNA. That’s what it has to do with. It has less to do with age than it does with capability. However, at that age — look, they hate what I say this, everyone on both sides hates when I say this and I actually don’t care. It is truth, and I’m not being an ageist. The average life expectancy of a man in the United States today is 76 years old. Both of them have passed their prime. It is, again, it’s a fact.

Alston: That is certainly one way to think about it. So, Jennifer, before we let you go, the RNC is out with its Trump policy or Trump-backed policy platform now. And there’s also this Project 2025, a conservative agenda that seeks to reshape the U.S. government, something Trump has been trying to distance himself from. But it was proposed by his allies. So we know that everything is not all roses and smiles on the Republican side either. How does his party get on one accord heading into November?

Nassour: Look, I mean, this is an age-old issue, right? I mean, us Mass. Republicans are, again, we’re different than than national Republicans. We are not the same as our friends in Oklahoma and Arkansas. So, you know, my perspective is going to be different. What I see, though, is: Trump is the head of the Republican Party. I mean, that is what it is right now. And you always are as the nominee. You always are the lead official in your party, just as Biden is for the DNC. And so, what I saw, though, in the platform, I scrolled through really fast because what was I concerned about —

Alston: About the 15 seconds here, Jennifer.

Nassour: Under Trump, the platform has softened on the abortion issue. It softened on the gay marriage issue, gay rights issue. And so I think that that’s really important to keep in mind, because that’s something that Trump is actually concerned with. I think that that’s a good thing.

Alston: Well, that is former Massachusetts chair of the GOP, Jennifer Nassour. Thank you so much.

Nassour: Thanks for having me.

Alston: You're listening to GBH news.

As Democrats continue to debate whether to back President Joe Biden’s reelection campaign, some Republicans who don’t support former President Donald Trump are feeling like they don’t like any of their options.

“Seventy percent of Americans didn’t want to see another Trump and Biden showdown,” former Massachusetts chair of the GOP Jennifer Nassour told GBH’s Morning Edition co-host Paris Alston Tuesday, referring to a poll from the University of Virginia Center for Politics. “The majority of American voters were waiting for some dark horse candidate to come out, or for either party to come to their senses and say, ‘we need someone who is younger, who is wiser, who is fresher, who doesn’t call people names, but also has an understanding of what is going on in the world today.’”

She described watching the first debate between Trump and Biden as “embarrassing.”

“Trump, for as vulgar as he is and the things that he says that make you shake your head ... as much as that, when you listen to him, he actually has a grasp on policy, and he actually has a grasp on what’s going on in the world,” Nassour said. “It has less to do with age than it does with capability. However, at that age — look, they hate what I say this, everyone on both sides hates when I say this and I actually don’t care. It is truth, and I’m not being an ageist. The average life expectancy of a man in the United States today is 76 years old. Both of them have passed their prime.”

On Monday, Biden again said that he will stay in the presidential race. Though there are Democrats talking about replacing him on the ticket, Nassour said her sense it that on the Republican side, “the ship has sailed.”

“It’s Trump,” she said. “I think so many of us are just waiting to see who the vice presidential pick is.”

Nassour said she has a hard time seeing a scenario in which Biden wins over large portions of the vote from Republican voters who don’t want to see Trump elected again. If another Democratic candidate takes the nomination, she said, it’s hard to predict the outcome.

Some Republican voters may be more likely to go for a candidate they see as more moderate, like Senators Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema, she said.

“I don’t see that the Democratic Party is at that point right now,” she said. “I’ve made these comments to my Democratic colleagues that, listen, if you’re not going to replace Biden, replace Kamala Harris, because the writing is on the wall.”

And there’s also a chance that people will decide to ignore the election altogether.

“The other thing that’s going to happen is voter apathy, which is what I’m concerned about, which we should all be concerned about,” she said. “That people sit at home, sit on their hands and just let a small minority decide the election.”