U.S. Senators begin the second day of questioning in the impeachment trial of President Donald Trump. WGBH News Morning Edition host Joe Mathieu spoke with WBZ TV political commentator Jon Keller about the latest on the impeachment process and how it may affect the 2020 Presidential Election. The transcript below has been edited for clarity.
Joe Mathieu: Let's start with impeachment. The president's legal team, namely Alan Dershowitz, said last night that there is almost no such thing as an impeachable offense as long as the president believes his or her actions are in the public interest.
"Abuse of power is not impeachable," Dershowitz said Wednesday. "The issue is not whether a crime is required. The issue is whether abuse of power is a permissible constitutional criteria, and the answer from the history is clearly unequivocally no."
Abuse of power is not impeachable? So the president is truly above the law.
Jon Keller: I mean, it reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live skit. Remember "Coffee Talk" where they say something about Elizabeth Taylor and then everyone discusses? I think that's maybe what Dershowitz is going for there. I mean, I stopped on the way in this morning to bring you guys some donuts, and there wasn't anybody at Dunkin' talking about the Dershowitz argument, I can tell you that much.
Mathieu: So that's not landing anywhere. Did that change the dialog on any level? Has any of this process?
Keller: I don't think much of it has changed much of anything. It's just another dollop of batter in a cake that's been baking for some time. And the cake is, if you're a Trump supporter, the outrageous efforts by the "deep state" to reverse the results of the last election. For the majority of Americans, it's underscoring the low view they have of President Trump's character. And so nothing's really changed. I think everyone's just further cemented into their position. It is notable to me, though, that the much promised backlash against the act of impeachment that the president's allies said was going to occur has yet to show up in any legitimate poll I've seen.
Mathieu: Well, you understand what motivates politicians as well as anyone, and that's what fascinates me here. Like you said, people are dug in — maybe more than ever even after all of this talk. So is it about getting re-elected in the case of the Republicans? If a majority of Americans want witnesses and President Trump does not have the support of a majority of Americans, what's everyone afraid of?
Keller: Great question. The Republican senators are afraid of Donald Trump.
Mathieu: But what can he do? They need him to keep their job. Is that what it comes down to?
Keller: He can refuse and order his people to refuse to deal with them on issues of importance to their states, for one thing. I've talked directly with staffers of a couple of Republican senators who say the only way we can get our calls returned from the White House is to be seen on Fox News stroking and petting him. So that's one thing. Then the ones that are up for re-election — it's still primary season in most states — and the threat of being primaried by a Trumpkin is a very real one. It's fear and loathing, just like always. And Congress historically has abysmal approval ratings from the public [and] struggles to get out of the single digits. I've never seen a poll where you got a negative number as an approval rating, but I think we're heading that way.
Mathieu: All this is against the backdrop, indeed, of a presidential race, John. So if witnesses are called, this likely goes straight through New Hampshire, maybe even longer. Is that a nightmare for the candidates? All of them, not just those locked in the Senate?
Keller: Well, I don't know if it's a nightmare.
Mathieu: It's a massive distraction.
Keller: Well, it's a distraction. But as I say, I think it's it's baked into a cake that they're already promoting or working on. This is going to be a long battle in the Democratic primary. I mean, unless Bernie Sanders or someone else runs the table in Iowa, New Hampshire, and just builds up a head of momentum, it has happened before. Doesn't look likely to happen this time. You know, it's entirely possible you could have four different winners in the four early primaries. Then you get into Super Tuesday. Then the Bloomberg money machine comes into play. And don't forget, by the time we get to the convention in Milwaukee in July, if there's no first ballot winner, the superdelegates come back into play. The dreaded superdelegates, all the party officials and establishment types. Might they like the idea of a Bloomberg at the head of the ticket with all the money that that brings? They might.
Mathieu: Okay, so give me a read on New Hampshire specifically. The polls show Bernie surging and Elizabeth Warren fading with a little more than a week to go. What's behind that?
Keller: I see this as really just Bernie Sanders returning to where he should have been all along in New Hampshire. Keep in mind, he mopped up the floor with Hillary Clinton four years ago. He's from a neighboring state. He has the most loyal followers. They tell pollsters, "I'm absolutely committed to him," in much larger numbers.
Mathieu: So it's his to lose?
Keller: It should be, in theory. The fact that others are within striking distance I think speaks to the deep ambivalence and divisions within the Democratic Party. They accuse The New York Times editorial board of being out of touch elitists. But it seems to me their split endorsement, which was much reviled on Twitter, was indicative and reflected the mood of the electorate. It's fragmented, people are ambivalent, Bernie Sanders does not run well with women [and] runs very poorly with moderates. So it's going to be a matter of who shows up to vote, and we're going to be talking about this for a while. I don't think there's going to be any quick knockouts here, Joe.
