The House Intelligence Committee begins its fourth day of public hearings in the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. WGBH Morning Edition Host Joe Mathieu spoke with Congresswoman Katherine Clark, who also serves as Vice Chair of the House Democratic Caucus, about what we may be able to expect in the ongoing hearings. The transcript below has been edited for clarity.
Joe Mathieu: This is quite a time we're in here. The Washington Post this morning is comparing Ambassador Sondland to John Dean and Monica Lewinsky as the key witness, they say, with firsthand information that could in fact lead to impeachment. Would you agree with that assessment?
Rep. Katherine Clark: What we know from every single witness is that Gordon Sondland is going to have pivotal testimony. He's an integral part of the Trump pressure campaign on Ukraine. And while he initially testified there was no quid pro quo, he has revised that testimony to say that other witnesses have allowed him to recall that, in fact, the Ukraine military aid was contingent on the investigations that Donald Trump wanted. When we look at that in light of the public hearings that have already happened, the facts are so clear. Every witness has confirmed that the aid was withheld to pressure a foreign nation into announcing investigations for Donald Trump's personal and electoral benefit. That is a stunning picture of betrayal and abuse of power that is being set forth.
Mathieu: So today could clearly be important, Congresswoman. Do you believe what Sondland says? Do you believe the words that are coming out of his mouth?
Clark: I think that Sondland looked at the testimony of other witnesses and realized that he could be facing serious legal charges for his previous testimony. I am glad that he made a correction, so to speak, and we'll see what he does today. I am not sure where he is going to end up, but I think that he is a political appointment, he became an ambassador after giving a million dollars to an inaugural campaign for the president, and he is now looking at the testimony of non-partisan career diplomats and employees of the State Department who have contradicted his previous testimony. So everyone is going to be watching this pivotal witness who was at the center of this pressure campaign by the president.
Mathieu: Senator Lindsey Graham, who chairs the Judiciary Committee, is accusing Democrats of flat-out making things up. He says Speaker Pelosi's use of the word "bribery", which we've heard from other Democrats, is a made up, poll-tested charge without any factual basis. You've made the point here in your own tweet that semantics are irrelevant. You say, "Call it what you want to. I call the President's actions wrong." Is this getting into dangerous ground using words like "bribery"?
Clark: Absolutely not. What is dangerous ground is that the Republicans continue to put President Trump — one person — ahead of country, [and] that they are choosing to ignore the facts of Donald Trump's indefensible misconduct. Instead, they are perpetuating debunked conspiracy theories, tired political antics and trying to out a whistleblower. Lindsey Graham needs to look at the truth. Look at what is emerging, and that there is no fact that is contested. Republicans are scrambling to defend the actions of the president. And what this boils down to is that no one is above the law. The Republicans are continuing to deify the President to try to cover for his indefensible actions.
Mathieu: I wonder, Congresswoman, what you made of Republican efforts yesterday to discredit Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who testified in his dress uniform. The Daily Beast is reporting today that the White House sent out talking points ahead of that to Republican surrogates, saying Vindman has major credibility issues even though he works at the White House.
Clark: Not only does he work at the White House, he is a Purple Heart recipient. He is someone who has critical testimony against this president because he was on the July 25th call where the president asked for a favor from Ukraine and he immediately reported this call as irregular and inappropriate. I thought one of the most powerful moments as we saw Republicans trying to assail this patriot was when he said in his opening statement that he wanted to show that America stands for something, and that we have values. He said he was testifying because this is America, and right matters. I wish my Republicans would take a page out of his book and remember their oath of office and patriotism.
Mathieu: I want to ask you about your Republican colleagues, Congresswoman. Do you believe that Republicans on the Intelligence Committee and throughout the House are being disingenuous, if not dishonest, in the way they're conducting themselves in this process?
Clark: I think that it is hard to look at the facts that have emerged with every single witness, including the Republican witnesses, confirming that this was an all-out pressure campaign on Ukraine to come forward, to put out a press release saying they were opening investigations into Hunter Biden and debunked conspiracy theories around the 2016 election. I don't believe they have any facts to work with, they don't have any substantive issues that they can contest, so they are turning to personality, intimidation, and attacks. It's sad to watch. I hope that they will remember that we come to Congress, of course, with our partisan differences, but those should fall away from the Constitution and defending our democracy.
