What makes a Christmas movie?

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Here at NPR, we treat the holidays seriously. We have whole conversations about what end-of-year stories to cover, what trends to talk about, and what movies to watch and, more importantly, talk about watching. But before you can even have that conversation, you need to have some agreement about what even makes a movie a Christmas movie. And here on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, we have an ongoing internal debate about just that. So now I’m joined by Marc Rivers, a film-obsessed producer on the show who has worked on most of the movie segments that we have aired for you on weekends, and Marc is here to settle this question once or for all, or in the spirit of movie discussions, not really settle anything and just lead to more arguments. Hey, Marc.

MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott. Good to be with you.

DETROW: I mean, it feels like - what makes a holiday movie? - is an obvious question for many, but it is not to you. What makes a holiday movie?

RIVERS: Well, you know, I should say that, first of all, I think ultimately a holiday movie can be anything you want it to be.

DETROW: Anything? So, like, “Ninja Turtles II: Secret Of The Ooze” - holiday movie?

RIVERS: If you watch it around the Christmas time with your family and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, that’s your Christmas movie.

DETROW: OK.

RIVERS: You know, so people watch “Wizard Of Oz” around the holiday season. I’ve heard from my friends who watch “The Lord Of The Rings” or “Harry Potter” around holiday season. I think a Christmas movie can be whatever makes you feel cozy in the winter time. Anything that makes you feel nostalgic for when you first watched as a kid, that can be a Christmas movie.

DETROW: I feel like there’s a turn coming here.

RIVERS: But - so here is the turn. Having said that, a Christmas movie, I think you can break it down to three tiers. I think - so there’s the first tier, which is Christmas is the subject of the movie, where if you took it out, there’d be no movie.

DETROW: Yeah.

RIVERS: And you probably - you kind of know this when you see it. Oftentimes, the word Christmas might be in the movie title itself - “A Christmas Story,” “How The Grinch Stole Christmas,” “Miracle On 34th Street,” right?

DETROW: Yeah.

RIVERS: Or “Elf.”

DETROW: I just rewatched the remake of that a few days ago - holds up.

RIVERS: Yeah. So I think if there are actual residents of the North Pole in your movie, that’s in the first tier of Christmas movies. Now we have the second tier - things get a little more interesting - where Christmas might instigate the plot, it might be a part of the plot, but if you took it out, changed a little bit of dialogue, you could still have the movie. It would still make sense.

DETROW: So I feel like “Home Alone” might be a good example of that.

RIVERS: I think “Home Alone” is a really good example of that. You know, so yes, sure, Kevin gets left behind for the Christmas season. But it could have been a summer vacation, and the movie could still play out the way it does.

DETROW: Right. And he sets up the Christmas tree, but we don’t actually really need that. We just need to get to the point where the robbers try to get into the house.

RIVERS: We just need him stuck in the house. We need the robbers to get in, and we need him to do his sadistic traps to abuse these two for the rest of the movie.

DETROW: OK, I like this idea. What’s another - so we talked about “Home Alone.” What’s another example?

RIVERS: So, you know - so don’t - so listeners, I don’t want to upset any of you guys, but I think a second-tier movie is probably “It’s A Wonderful Life.”

DETROW: What?

RIVERS: Yeah, I know. I know.

DETROW: OK.

RIVERS: Greatest Christmas movie of all time - I’ve heard it all.

DETROW: Yeah. I wildly disagree, but let me hear you out.

RIVERS: If you take out the fact that the movie leads up to Christmas Eve or that by the very end of it, he’s yelling through the - you know, yelling through the town, Merry Christmas...

DETROW: So if you take the heart of the movie (laughter).

RIVERS: You don’t need any of that. You know, this movie could have taken place on his birthday. You know, we - people feel depressed and think about - you know, they take stock of their lives.

DETROW: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

RIVERS: They don’t need Christmas to do that. They could do it on their birthday. They could do it around - they could do it on New Year’s. Christmas adds the kind of garnish to it. But you take it out - he’s still depressed. He can still talk to the angels without the holiday season.

DETROW: But the whole community coming together and singing Christmas songs with one another and sharing the Christmas spirit and yelling Merry Christmas were...

RIVERS: Maybe they’re coming together on Groundhog Day like they do in the Bill Murray movie.

DETROW: I love “Groundhog Day” as a holiday and a movie, but I think I’m with you on everything else you said this segment.

RIVERS: Like I said, it’s still Christmas movie. It’s just second-tier Christmas, not the top. No one in “It’s A Wonderful Life” lives at the North Pole, has ever lived at the North Pole.

DETROW: Let’s disagree and move on.

RIVERS: (Laughter) Fair enough.

DETROW: Now another perennial topic - what about 1988 film “Die Hard”? Does it also fit into this second tier that we are talking about?

RIVERS: “Die Hard” is often a point of discussion over - is or is it not a Christmas movie?

DETROW: Yes, yes.

RIVERS: I call it a tier-two Christmas movie. It could be almost any work party that John McClane gets invited to, and he gets trapped aside and has to fight.

DETROW: As happens at a work party.

RIVERS: As often happens at a work party.

DETROW: OK. So what about tier three?

RIVERS: So tier three, like, is my favorite tier. And this is where Christmas is more - Christmas is in the background. It’s ornamental, where it has no influence on the plot going forward, but it’s just - it’s atmosphere. So this is something that applies to a movie like “Eyes Wide Shut,” the Stanley Kubrick film, or “The Apartment,” classic Billy Wilder film. And I like this tier best of all, I think, because this is the kind of tier that we all live in. You know, we’re not all Ebenezer Scrooge or Buddy the Elf. You know, we won’t be - we might buy presents, and we’re looking forward to the Christmas season. But for the rest of the time, we’re going to work every day. We’re putting food on the table. We’re grocery shopping.

DETROW: I just want to say Buddy the Elf goes to work. He tries.

RIVERS: He does. Buddy works at the North Pole. And the rest of us don’t really work at the North Pole. You know, we have other jobs. So I think the third tier is the most relatable tier, I think, for the average person 'cause that’s where we live, where Christmas is often in the background.

DETROW: All right. I will say I had never truly thought of it that way before, and you’re convincing me.

RIVERS: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a way to kind of bring all the movies together because this whole debate around - is “Die Hard” a Christmas movie or is it not? - like, yes, it’s just not in that top tier. You know, it’s not “Miracle On 34th Street.”

DETROW: Yeah (laughter).

RIVERS: Yeah, a little more cursing than in “Miracle On 34th Street.”

DETROW: OK. So of this tier three, what are a couple of your favorites? And are there ones that you watch every single December?

RIVERS: So I do have a couple that I watch every December, and I mentioned one of them. It’s “The Apartment” with Jack Lemmon and Shirley MacLaine. Jack Lemmon plays this insurance employee who’s trying to climb the corporate ladder. And one of the ways he’s doing this is maybe not so nice for the holiday season - lending out his nice Upper West Side apartment in New York City to top executives who then use it for their extramarital affairs.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “THE APARTMENT”)

JACK LEMMON: (As C.C. Baxter) It’s a real nice apartment - nothing fancy, but kind of cozy, just right for a bachelor. The only problem is, I can’t always get in when I want to.

RIVERS: The movie sounds a lot sleezier (ph) than it actually is, but it’s one of those movies that I always turn to for comfort around the holiday season.

DETROW: Let’s talk about the very first tier movie you watched. It can be any movie whatsoever, but it’s just one that you or your family or your friends happen to watch every single December. Is there anything for you?

RIVERS: I mean, first tier that I have to watch every year, and I think we talked about this last year as well, is “Elf.”

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “ELF”)

FAIZON LOVE: (As Gimbel’s Manager) OK, people, tomorrow morning, 10 a.m., Santa’s coming to town.

WILL FERRELL: (As Buddy, yelling) Santa. Oh, my God.

Santa here? I know him.

RIVERS: That’s the kind of last really great Christmas movie that we’ve gotten. And I think one of the keys to that movie is that only the elf character played by Will Ferrell actually realizes he’s in a Christmas movie. The rest of the cast is more like we are, where they’re just trying to make it through the day, make it through work. They’re trying to, you know, appease their boss, and they’re trying to just like, you know, stay together as a family. So I think it’s so relatable in that way. It doesn’t force the sentiment of the movie. I think the sentiment feels very earned.

DETROW: Can I tell you a realization I had about “Elf”...

RIVERS: Please do.

DETROW: ...This past week when I watched it for the 500th time? And I say this as someone of a certain age and somebody who consumed a lot of “The Lord Of The Rings” content as well. It never occurred to me that the kind of annoying Central Park Rangers plot line of “Elf” is just a “Lord Of The Rings” reference of the Nazgul 'cause those movies came out around the same time.

RIVERS: I also - you’ve just now made me think about that, but that makes a lot of sense. I think “Lord Of The Rings” is another movie that many of my friends that they watch every year, even though it has nothing to do with Christmas time. But I think like something like “Lord Of The Rings” or something like “Wizard Of Oz” or “Harry Potter” - it’s the fantastical, magical element of it all - right? - where there’s something magical about Christmas, and we kind of want to find that magic in the movies as well. So...

DETROW: Intergenerational nostalgia and relationships built around that movie or that book or that story.

RIVERS: It’s a movie that’ll be - that you pass down to your kids - right? - or your niece and nephew, for sure.

DETROW: Yeah. That is NPR producer Marc Rivers. Marc, thanks as always.

RIVERS: Thank you, Scott.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

DETROW: Clarence is an angel. What are you talking...

RIVERS: That’s - he’s not - there aren’t any angels in the North Pole. There are elves. There are elves. There’s the Clauses. That’s it.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.