Carlos Simon, the Boston Symphony’s new composer chair, talks with WCRB’s Brian McCreath about his musical and personal roots in the churches of his family, his hopes and plans with the BSO — including a September 29 Boston Symphony Chamber Players concert — and the deep meanings of his music on a new recording entitled “Four Symphonic Works,” released by the National Symphony Orchestra and conductor Gianandrea Noseda.
To hear the conversation, including excerpts of music, use the player above, and read the transcript below.
TRANSCRIPT (lightly edited for clarity):
Brian McCreath I’m Brian McCreath with Carlos Simon, the incoming composer chair of the Boston Symphony. Carlos, thanks so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Carlos Simon It’s an honor, Brian. Glad to be here.
Brian McCreath You know, like many composers, especially busy composers, one can look at your biography and sort of see all these orchestras that you’ve composed for and that have performed your music. And so I took a look at that. We won’t list them all here. It’s a long list in your case. But then last Saturday, I decided, you know, I’m going to drop in on the BBC Last Night of the Proms. And there you were again! I didn’t even know that was happening. And Carlos Simon shows up on the Last Night of the Proms with Hellfighter’s Blues. Fantastic piece. What was that like?
Carlos Simon Oh, it’s surreal. You know, as an American, I wasn’t really sure about the Proms, but it has a huge impact with British culture. And I was really, really honored to have a piece on this program. It’s just incredible. And, you know, that program is broadcast to over 3 million people.
Brian McCreath Around the world.
Carlos Simon Around the world. And, of course, the Proms is so iconic and legendary. And that place was packed. So, I was really, really fortunate to have that. I wasn’t able to be there. But, you know, it was still great to just experience it online.
Brian McCreath Yeah, and it’s a great piece. I hope we hear it here sometime in Boston because it’s a really, really fun piece.
Well, let’s talk a little about your background. The BSO has played your music before, in fact, commissioned a fantastic set of Four Black American Dances that, as I’ve heard it from others, was just the highlight of the European tour the orchestra did last year. But let’s talk about where you’re from, how music has played its role in your life. You’re the son of a preacher. And that’s where music sort of grew in your life. Tell me about that environment.
Carlos Simon Well, it’s actually a family tradition, that my father started a church, his father started a church, and his father started a church. So, we have a hundred years of traditions of the men in my family starting churches. And the children would be responsible for doing things in the church. My great- grandfather had 12 children. My grandfather had seven. And I’m the oldest of five. And we all did something. You know, my sisters, they ushered. My brothers, they counted the money, and they were the treasures. And of course, I was in charge of the music. And so it was a family tradition, it seemed normal to me, and every single week we would go in in preparation for service on Sunday. Monday night was Bible study, and Thursday night was choir rehearsal. Saturday, we went in to clean the church and I mowed the grass and practiced a little bit. And Sunday, we were in church all day, and we had an 11:00 service and a 4:00 service. And sometimes, we would go to another church at 8:00. So we were in church all day Sunday. And of course, the week was really, really packed with church activities. So when I tell you church was my life, it was the center of our whole livelihood.
Brian McCreath Yeah, and you providing music for a lot of that along the way, hours of music every week, it sounds like.
Carlos Simon Yes. [Laughs]
Brian McCreath Along with a little landscaping, too.
Carlos Simon [Laughs] Exactly. And as a 16-year-old, to have that sense of responsibility, it’s kind of traumatic to think about now. But it really prepared me for my life now, and it allowed me to really have a sense of responsibility and duty, with someone actually looking for me to do something, that’s a huge thing to have to put on a person, on a young child. But I took it, and I did it with the help of my parents and, of course, my uncles, who also did the same thing, so it really prepared me for my life now.
Brian McCreath Fantastic. Tell me about the idea of coming to Boston for this position. It’s a brand-new position. The BSO traditionally doesn’t have composers-in-residence, like other orchestras often have. So this was something that was prepared just for you. And I wonder how the concept was presented to you by the BSO and what your first thoughts were when they said, listen, this is what we’d like to propose to you.
Carlos Simon Yeah, well, I remember getting the call shortly after the tour.
Brian McCreath Okay, last year during the Four Black American Dances on tour.
Carlos Simon Correct. And up until that point, I’d been working with the orchestra just about every year on something, coming to Tanglewood for something, and, of course, during the pandemic, the Boston Symphony Chamber Players played a short piece of mine called Warmth from Other Suns. So, I had built relationships with the players, and, of course, Maestro Nelsons and the administration with the BSO, and so I knew them. They knew me. And having them say we are crafting a new position, and this is the first time we’re trying this, it was like, okay, this is amazing, it’s incredible. But also, scary because it’s the first time that it’s been done. So, it’s an opportunity that’s kind of crafted in a way that it’s beneficial for all, and I’m so fortunate and so happy to be starting this position.
Brian McCreath And how is it different from what other orchestras might have as a composer-in-residence? What’s the composer chair involved in for you?
Carlos Simon Well, for me, particularly with the Boston Symphony, I will not only be writing music each season, but I will be writing music for Tanglewood, you know, the choir, and working with the composers, young composers with the Tanglewood [Music Center]. So, there’s a little bit of mentorship there and education. I will also be curating concerts. Actually, in a couple weeks, I’ll be curating a concert with the Chamber Players, Boston Symphony Chamber Players. And next spring I will curate the Coltrane Legacy series.
Brian McCreath That’s right, yeah. John Coltrane, Symphonic Legacy.
Carlos Simon Exactly. Yeah. There’s a lot of different things. So, writing, there’s mentorship, there’s education, there’s curation. So, it’s a big job, you know? But I’m really happy to do it.
Brian McCreath I want to touch on those things again in just a sec. But first, just tell me, broadly in your time, as you say, you’ve developed this relationship with the BSO over years. What is it about that orchestra that you find is unique in what inspires you about their sound, their way of doing things?
Carlos Simon Well, the Boston Symphony Orchestra is a very old institution, right? And it’s one of the oldest orchestras in the country. And I believe that the institution itself, it’s built on tradition. But at the same time, there’s innovation happening at this particular time. And I believe in having both the tradition, the history, but also the ability to move forward and to create new opportunities and new platforms for stories that don’t typically get told.
Brian McCreath And you’re entering into this sort of, well, maybe this isn’t the best time for it, but I’ll just say catalog of other composers who have composed for the BSO. This orchestra has one of the deepest legacies of commissioning composers of any particular time. And now you are one of those who will — you already are one of those — but now in a more significant way as composer chair.
Carlos Simon Yeah, and I was walking around the hall today during rehearsal and just seeing all the history... Roland Hayes, you know, who first had his performance in 1917, in time when there’s deep segregation across the country. And the Boston Symphony welcomed him, and he had a long-standing relationship until 1960. And of course, many composers’ works who the orchestra championed, and so, I feel at home, and I feel like my music is safe and will have a good place, and the musicians will treat the music with respect. And I’m grateful for that.
Brian McCreath For the Chamber Players concert that you’re curating, you’ve drawn music from a set of colleagues that are known as the “Blacknificent Seven.” Tell me about that group of Black composers of our time and what that group means for you in your work and in your life.
Carlos Simon Well, we came together during the pandemic. You know, community is so important. I didn’t really realize how important it was until we actually came together. And it started as a text thread. We would text each other, you know, about different things like commissioning and who was having problems with writer’s block, and saying that, you know, and then it became like a support group, and it still is. We communicate if we’re working on a piece; we’ll share the piece in its infancy. And if a piece is done or premiered, somebody from the group will come and support during the premiere. So, it really is like having someone in your same field who understands what it means to be a composer, one, but also what it means to be a Black composer and having that similar ground to talk to people about. It really means a lot. And each of us has a different sound, musically speaking, but we all have similarities when it comes down to our mission and why we’re writing music.
Brian McCreath Some of these composers have been heard here in Boston and by the BSO, but it’s a great introduction to the Blacknificent Seven through the Boston Symphony Chamber Players on September 29th, so I’m really glad you’re doing that.
And let me ask you again about the Coltrane concert [March 21 and 22, 2025] and, when presented with the idea of a concert of that type, why Coltrane? Tell me about Coltrane’s importance to you as a as a person and as a musician.
Carlos Simon Well, Coltrane, you know, his music I feel was very, very layered. It has the idea of spirituality, of course. He really focused on politics of the time. But of course, musically speaking, it really pushed the envelope in terms of jazz and bebop. He is legendary, of course, and having a layered composer and performer, I was really drawn to him. His music really, I felt, lends itself to the orchestra, it will really work well with the orchestra because it has so many different layers, not only in terms of the music, but also the message that it concerns. Think about him as an artist. He grew and evolved throughout his whole entire life. And the concert really shows the different stages of his life and the evolution of him becoming the musician that he was.
Brian McCreath I’m really looking forward to how Coltrane comes through with the BSO and you behind it as the arranger, the curator of that program. So, I’m glad that’s happening.
Let’s talk for a few minutes about this new recording that’s just been released, the National Symphony Orchestra, with whom you’ve had also a strong relationship over a number of years, and Gianandrea Noseda, their conductor: Four Symphonic Works. And I want to talk about each of them a little bit as points of inspiration for you. I actually want to start with the last part on the CD, which is Wake Up! Concerto for Orchestra.
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What strikes me about that piece, along with its rich color and variety of energy that flows through it, is that it’s inspired by a poem. And yet you didn’t set the text of the poem [“Awake, Asleep,” by Rajendra Bhandari] for a vocalist or something. So, tell me about that process and finding a poem and how that fires your imagination to write purely instrumental music.
Carlos Simon The San Diego Symphony approached me to write a piece to commemorate their new hall. And I thought about, first, the players. How would they respond to this new space, of waking the hall up?
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It’ll be the first time they would be able to hear themselves in this new space. And so, I designed the piece so they can all hear each other, but also different sections: the brass alone, strings alone, percussion alone, etc., and being able to hear themselves in that space in each section, waking the hall up.
[MUSIC]
But I also thought about the audience and how they would respond, and it would be the first thing that they would hear. They’re coming in from the world. And that’s where the poem comes in.
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The poem really speaks about how when we are in in masses, we tend to think alike, generally speaking, and we become asleep. Because if my neighbor is thinking this way and they’re safe, then I’m safe. So, we lose the ability to think individually, right? And so, the poem really speaks about this waking yourself up and responding to the world in a way that creates change. So, I wanted to embed that into the piece, you know, using this two-note motif in many different ways. So, it comes in [sings] or [sings].
[MUSIC]
And throughout the 25 minutes that the piece is you hear different variations on these two notes. So, “Wake up!” So, the piece really serves two purposes, to wake the hall up, but also wake the audience up.
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Brian McCreath And as you described it, it becomes clear to me where you decided to use the term “Concerto for Orchestra.” That’s a weighty term for a piece of music because of Bartók, because of Lutosławski. But you say that each part of the orchestra wakes up in the piece, and that is the idea of a Concerto for Orchestra, that it features each part of the orchestra in these other pieces as well. So, thank you for that little clarity on that. That’s awesome. That’s great. And also, it is part of the opening subscription program of the BSO. So, we’re really looking forward to hearing that with the BSO.
Preceding that on this album is Songs of Separation, with the beautiful voice, by the way, of J’Nai Bridges. What an amazing singer. She’s sung with the BSO as well. But how good to hear her singing your music.
[MUSIC]
You were responding to the separation of the Covid pandemic, and yet it’s such an uplifting piece.
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And I’m just curious about this idea of positive inspiration, and if you’re looking for that in other pieces of art, or whether that’s just what you always see. I mean, some composers are inspired to write things about, you know, frankly, very difficult pieces of art or themes, but you seem to always have a positive bent to your music.
Carlos Simon Sure. Well, I mean, this goes back to my upbringing and hearing my dad preach. It was always, how can you help these people? How can you serve? Yes, we can talk about the struggle. We can talk about what’s bad and what ails you. But ultimately, how can we get out of this? What is the antidote? What is the thing that will help you come out of the struggle? And the text that I chose, it shows us that you can, in different ways, you can do this. One of my favorite movements is called “Dance.”
[MUSIC]
Carlos Simon “Dance when you’re fighting,” that’s what the text says, you know, “dance when you’re torn.” I mean, it’s a text that I was drawn to because, yes, the Covid pandemic, we were losing so many people, and I lost so many people in my family. But it could be a breakup, it could be divorce, it could be losing a loved one. I think in our lifetime, we all lose people, and we will leave people through death or break ups or whatever. So, it’s inevitable. Loss is inevitable. How we deal with is the most important thing, and how we get through it. And hopefully this piece will provide some guidance in that way.
[MUSIC]
Brian McCreath As you write in your notes for it, what Rumi is saying and what you reflect in the music is that your sorrows and your sadnesses will become your strengths. These things go hand in hand.
The Folklore Symphony: Tales is just fantastic. But all of these four short pieces, one of which has been played by the BSO, Motherboxx Connection, drawing from African-American stories and Afrofuturist stories. Tell me about the role of those kinds of stories in your life.
Carlos Simon Well, I always heard about these stories. But the piece gave me an opportunity to really dig deep and to provide an orchestral study of these stories that I was hearing, and provide a soundtrack, if you will, without the picture, without the film. I tend to think like that when it comes to storytelling. How is this like a movie? I am the director. I am the sound effects engineer and adding that into the orchestration.
[MUSIC]
These pieces represent different stories. Each movement represents a different story. And I wanted to highlight these stories because they are very important to African-American culture, not only from the past, because these stories came from oftentimes enslaved Africans, those who were experiencing Jim Crow during that time, but also I wanted to focus on the future, too. And there’s a comic book author who really uses Afrofuturism as a tool, showing that there are Black heroes in these books, in these comic books. And so bringing in the past and the future together in each movement is, I think, the important aspect of the piece.
Brian McCreath And each of them, if I remember correctly, draws in a spiritual, just maybe a snippet, a little theme that you hear kind of woven in. So, it’s not as though a setting of a spiritual, but it’s just like a little bit of a spiritual that enlivens whichever particular story it is through those four pieces.
Carlos Simon Yeah. And these spirituals are so important, I think, and they’re being lost. A lot of people in my generation, particularly, don’t know the tunes of these spirituals, and I think one of the reasons why I wanted to embed them into this work is to kind of maintain them and to make sure that they are still being used as a resource. You know, there was a Czech composer, Dvořák. He said that the African-American spirituals should be a resource for American classical music, if you will; I’m paraphrasing. But, you know, that was almost 100 years ago, well over a hundred years ago, actually. And so, I feel like the spiritual is a very important resource. It was birthed out of the soil, and, of course, jazz and gospel music and so many different art forms come out of the spiritual. So, quoting “Steal Away” or a work song like “John Henry” — “This Old Hammer Killed John Henry” — is important. It serves as a historical reflection.
[MUSIC]
Brian McCreath Absolutely. Yeah. The first piece on the album, I think, having gone in reverse order now, is a fantastic opener anyway, The Block. And it was inspired by this amazing painting/collage by Romare Bearden, an artist who did a lot of work in the South. But this was a particular depiction of a city block of Harlem.
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I don’t know how that piece originated, did you simply encounter that art and were inspired by it? Or what way did you find your way into that work and how did it take root in a musical form in your mind?
Carlos Simon Well, I knew about Romare Bearden, and I loved his work, his idea of collage. He brings in different materials and makes a piece. And essentially, I felt like that was what my music was doing. It’s like taking in different pieces here and going, let’s take that piece and paste it together and make a collage, if you will. And that’s what he was doing. He was a musician himself, so I was drawn to his work. But The Block is one of his most prominent works. It’s a, I think, four panel mural. The Block is huge, and I saw it and I was like, oh my God, this is so captivating, and it’s colorful. It has energy. And it immediately put me in the space in the 1960s in Harlem.
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On this one block, there is a church, there is a funeral home, there’s a barbershop, there’s a nightclub. You know, people are walking on the street, the cars. And you’re there. And I wanted to embed that into the orchestra and use the orchestra to encapsulate this feeling.
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Brian McCreath What I love is your description of Bearden’s technique, your finding resonance in that with the way that you compose. I did not put those pieces together myself. But yeah, you have so many influences of your music, from film music to the gospel that you grew up with, to classical mainstream music. And the idea of your assembling these pieces in the same way that Bearden did his artwork is really fascinating. So, thank you for that. Yeah. Well, listen, I am so glad we got to spend some time together. I’ve heard you talk from the stage at the hall and at Tanglewood and heard your music with the BSO so many times now that it’s a real gift that not only you’re coming here to spend a lot of time with Boston and with the Boston Symphony, but that that you were here with me today. So, I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Carlos Simon It’s a pleasure, Brian. Thank you so much.
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