Siegel: This is GBH's Morning Edition. The Netflix series "Baby Reindeer" is the number one show on the streaming giant. It has been for weeks.
Richard Gadd [previously recorded]: I would like to report something. How does it work?
Siegel: But it's an unlikely hit.
Richard Gadd [previously recorded]: I don't know how to tell you this, but, like, I'm getting stalked.
Siegel: It tells the story of a victim of stalking. He's a struggling Scottish comedian. And instead of immediately reporting the woman who spends her days following him around and texting him incessantly—
Jessica Gunning [previously recorded]: Really manly hands, haven't you? That deep voice, chiseled jawline, should be illegal to have your bone structure too, you know? They should tax you for that. Man tax.
Siegel: He does nothing for a long time, even becoming sympathetic and helping the woman terrorizing his life.
Richard Gadd [previously recorded]: I felt sorry for her. That's the first feeling I felt.
Siegel: It's a complex story that's funny and scary at times, and it's drawn the attention of people around the world. But it's tricky when dealing with a story surrounding a crime like stalking to know what is safe, what is healthy, and what is responsible to be sharing in a TV show. Joining me now for more is Carlos Cuevas, a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Northeastern University. Professor Cuevas, thank you so much for coming on.
Cuevas: Sure, happy to be here.
Siegel: As a criminologist watching a show like this, how would you describe the crime that unfolds on screen?
Cuevas: So I think one of the challenges is that very often you have shows like this that become very popular and get a lot of attention, and often are not necessarily showing what the more common or typical experience is for individuals who are stalked. And so I think one of the concerns about a show like this is that it may give individuals sort of a misrepresentation of what this experience is like, what the reality of being stalked is like, and make assumptions about victims that I don't know are always necessarily true or accurate.
Siegel: How does the depiction in this show differ from what you might see in reality?
Cuevas: It's not so much that some aspects of it are different. I think there may be some dynamics of it that are not the typical things you see. So, for example, a large majority of victims of stalking are stalked by someone they've had a prior relationship with, whether it be romantic or otherwise. And I think sometimes shows like this where the victim here is sort of maintaining a connection with the person doing the stalking, sort of trying to negotiate with them in some way, I think sometimes unjustly pins a certain degree of responsibility on victims, which, again, is not something that you really want to do or something that happens when we're talking about this happening in individuals' lives.
Siegel: Watching the show, you can't help but think when you see the central character continuing to see and entertain and not report his stalker, why are you doing this?
Richard Gadd [previously recorded]: I went to unfriend there many times. But I always stop myself. She is ill. Misunderstood. There are two sides to every story.
Siegel: As someone who studies crimes like this, why would someone not report a crime?
Cuevas: There's a lot of reasons. I think one of the things is that very often victims say, 'well, if I can just sort of appease them or kind of negotiate with them, I can get them to stop.' And so for a lot of victims of stalking, it's sort of one of the tactics that they think can get the perpetrators to stop doing it. The problem with that is that very often the person who is doing the stalking sees that as sort of encouragement or acceptance of their behavior rather than what it is, which is really the victim trying to get them to stop in a way that doesn't require confronting approaches or the use of protection or restraining orders or things like that, which is one of the few tools stalking victims have to really sort of try to get somebody to stop, but can be ineffective since they often — if they don't discourage the perpetrator, they can potentially sort of aggravate the behavior, anger them, particularly if there's been, you know, a history between the two individuals, if it's a prior relationship, it was a relationship that had violence in it. Sometimes there's some risk to taking those sort of legal avenues to try to get the stalker to stop.
Siegel: The popularity of "Baby Reindeer," and the fact that it was based off of someone's own experience, has led to a flurry of amateur sleuths trying to identify people who might have been involved in the actual story, people obsessed with uncovering the identity of of the real Martha, the stalker in this story. That has caught the attention of the UK government, which has actually issued a warning to Netflix over the show. What do you make of this phenomenon of an audience getting involved in potentially real crimes, in real lives?
Cuevas: There have been a lot of shows or movies where it's based off of somebody's actual experience, and they've sort of fictionalized it. And without fail, if you will, there are people who want to find out who the players were and what actually happened. It's a challenging sort of situation in one sense, because this is this person's experience. And this was their creative outlet for presenting it to the world, if you will. But the other side of it is that there will always be people who will want to find out, oh, who is it really about? Who is the actual person? And I think the responsibility there is that you do want to protect individuals who are involved in sort of artistic endeavors such as these. Particularly if they're not the ones who chose to sort of be open about the situation.
Siegel: What do you think is behind people's desire to investigate and become involved in these stories surrounding real-life crimes?
Cuevas: I mean, I think there's a certain curiosity about — whether we're talking about, you know, there's been a lot of really popular podcasts and other movies and series around these topics. I think there's just to some degree, a certain degree of curiosity about these types of behaviors. And I have a sense — and I don't know, because honestly, this isn't anything much more than my sense of this — which is that when it's not like the news, when it's presented in this either fictionalized format or in a more sort of popular media format, it's sort of in some ways more appealing to hear about it than to hear about actual events, like from the news. And so I think there's this draw about learning or hearing about experiences that for some people may be very foreign to them or they may be curious about. And this in some ways is, for like a lot a better term, a more digestible medium for how to learn and hear about it.
Siegel: Northeastern University Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice Carlos Cuevas, thank you so much for your time.
Cuevas: Great to be with you. Thank you.
Siegel: And if you or someone you know is the victim of stalking, the state has a list of resources at mass.gov. And the Statewide Coalition Against Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence, Jane Doe Inc. has resources available at Janedoe.org. This is GBH's Morning Edition.
For weeks, the Netflix series “Baby Reindeer” has been the number one show on the streaming giant.
But it's an unlikely hit: It tells the story of a victim of stalking. He's a struggling Scottish comedian. And instead of immediately reporting the woman who spends her days following him around and texting him incessantly, he does nothing for a long time, even becoming sympathetic and helping the woman terrorizing his life.
It's a complex story that's funny and scary at times, and it's drawn the attention of people around the world.
But it's tricky when dealing with a story surrounding a crime like stalking to know what is safe, what is healthy and what is responsible to be sharing in a TV show.
“One of the challenges is that very often you have shows like this that become very popular and get a lot of attention, and often are not necessarily showing what the more common or typical experience is for individuals who are stalked,” said Carlos Cuevas, a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Northeastern University.
“One of the concerns about a show like this is that it may give individuals sort of a misrepresentation of what this experience is like, what the reality of being stalked is like, and make assumptions about victims that I don't know are always necessarily true or accurate,” he said.
A large majority of stalking cases involve people who know one another, Cuevas said, usually people who have had a previous relationship, romantic or platonic.
The dynamics in “Baby Reindeer” may also perpetuate some stigma stalking victims face, he said.
“I think sometimes shows like this, where the victim here is sort of maintaining a connection with the person doing the stalking, sort of trying to negotiate with them in some way, I think sometimes unjustly pins a certain degree of responsibility on victims,” Cuevas said. “Which, again, is not something that you really want to do or something that happens when we're talking about this happening in individuals' lives.”
In many cases, he said, people may chose not to report their stalkers because they fear going to authorities would only make the situation worse.
“I think one of the things is that very often victims say, 'well, if I can just sort of appease them or kind of negotiate with them, I can get them to stop,'” Cuevas said. “The problem with that is that very often the person who is doing the stalking sees that as sort of encouragement or acceptance of their behavior rather than what it is, which is really the victim trying to get them to stop in a way that doesn't require confronting approaches or the use of protection or restraining orders.”
The popularity of “Baby Reindeer,” and the fact that it was based off of someone's true experience, has led to a flurry of amateur sleuths trying to identify people who might have been involved in the actual story, obsessed with uncovering the identity of the real Martha, the stalker in this story.
That has caught the attention of the UK government, which issued a warning to Netflix over the show.
“There's a certain curiosity,” Cuevas said.
It’s likely the same curiosity that drives mass interest in true crime podcasts, TV shows and movies.
“It's a challenging sort of situation in one sense, because this is this person's experience. And this was their creative outlet for presenting it to the world, if you will,” Cuevas said. “I think the responsibility there is that you do want to protect individuals who are involved in sort of artistic endeavors such as these. Particularly if they're not the ones who chose to sort of be open about the situation.”
If you or someone you know is the victim of stalking, the state has a list of resources here, and the statewide coalition against sexual assault and domestic violence Jane Doe Inc. has resources available here.